E81 | Jonas Dodoo: Calibrating The Coaching Eye With Data

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Jonas Dodoo developed as a coach through his passion for speed and power and was lucky enough to be under the tutelage of Master Coach Dan Pfaff for four years. Jonas has worked with many elite performers across a range of sports but with his main successors and main role within Track and Field. Jonas currently has an Elite Group of Sprinters based out of the National Institute at Loughborough and he is also currently Consulting at Premiership and Championship Football and Rugby clubs working with their staff and first team players.

Topics Covered:

  1. Jonas’ work with elite sprinters despite not coming from a track and field background himself
  2. How to develop a “coaching eye”
  3. Objectively and subjectively defining “frontside” and “backside” in running
  4. Metrics and technology Jonas uses to calibrate his coaching eye
  5. Drive index and sprint profiling/output strategies
  6. Drive index differences between team sport and track athletes
  7. Doubling down on an athlete’s strength or working on weaknesses- what informs Jonas’ decision making
  8. What to do when data and the coaching eye tell a different story
  9. Speedworks Training and Jonas’ virtual internship program

Links of Interest:

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Episode Transcription: Welcome to Resilient Performance Podcast. I'm your host Doug Kechijian, and today I'm joined by Jonas Dodoo. Jonas develop as a coach through his passion for speed and power, and was lucky enough to be under the tutelage of master coach Dan Path for four years, Jonas has worked with many elite performers across a range of sports, but with his main successors and main role within track and field Jonas currently has an elite group of sprinters based out of the national Institute of Loftburrow. And he is currently consulting at premiership and championship football and rugby clubs working with their staff and their players. I'm currently completing Jonas's speed works, virtual internship program myself, and just to disclosure, uh, on this podcast and that resilience, we don't. Participate in any affiliated programs. Um, we don't accept free resources from other coaches and practitioners because we want every endorsement that we make to be authentic. So, um, I actually sought out Jonas, not the other way around. And, um, I've really enjoyed his internship program for me. The key thing that I'm getting out of it, besides this another review and deep dive into a sprint biomechanics running programming, and then all of the general qualities that helped you, I support, um, sprint development is Jonas his ability to kind of discuss subjectively what a coaching I should be able to detect and sprinting and running. But also, um, and this is, this is the key thing, and he's probably the first person that I've seen really make this very digestibles what technology and metrics can be used to, to keep our coaching. I honest and Jonas uses the binary software to do that. And in his internship program, and here in this podcast, we talk about, um, the key metrics that he tracks. And then how he uses that technology and software to keep us coaching. I honest because you know, the goal with any kind of coaching or rehab intervention should be that the subjective and the objective should match. And I think that Jonas and Jonas has internship program or, you know, some of the best resources that I've encountered as to how to marry the objective with the subjective Jonas. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, would you begin by talking about how you ended up coaching elite speed athletes, elite sprinters, because if I'm not mistaken, I don't think you've actually come from a track and field background. I think it's pretty rare to see non track, uh, coaches coaching elite sprinters. Yeah. Um, my, I came from a rugby background and I played rugby growing up as a kid and I was decent. I was pretty explosive and naturally fast. And I think I was fast because I, all I did as a kid really was play games and run fast. And, and we, we got a game called knocked down Jinja. You're not going to throw you run. Um, so everyone's got that game in their neighborhood and we played it a lot as kids and got into a lot of trouble. And so I naturally became pretty explosive in foster and played rugby growing up and just fell out of love of sport. At least for myself as an African, I was always broken. And then the journey to finding more clarity on training process and rehab helped me find on own path and down path made me fall in love with maybe being in control of all my components and learning how to juggle them all. So naturally doing that in athletics was going to be easy because if you can peak someone, get them to be fittest, fastest, strongest, and most recovered on one particular day or within a certain number of weeks after 45 weeks of training, then you could probably go into most, most team sports environments and manipulate your week to week. That's almost easier. That's so much more easier than having to control all of the things and get them ready. So, yeah, team sports is where I came from. I got lost and athletics helped me find myself. And then I came back into team sports and almost spread the word. Yeah, that's interesting because like I said, I mean, I think you've coached even some sub 10. Sprinters. And I think even coaching speed from a team sports standpoint, it's still different than, or like you're working with a truly elite sprinter. How do we get there? Block spar start, you know, to improve on this like micro level where every hundredth of a second counts. And you're, you know, it's obviously in some ways less variables than a team sport, but I think that there's plenty of team sport coaches and even like myself, where I feel comfortable coaching a team sport athlete to be faster. But if I was working with an elite sprinter and they're like, I need every component of my race to be better, I would not feel comfortable doing that. And I would outsource it to somebody like you. So it's um, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting that you ended up where you are kind of just going back and forth between track and field and team sport. And, you know, as we discussed off the air, I'm currently going through your internship program right now. I've been following your work for a while. So I was happy to see that you. Release that. And one of the things you talk about kind of the, the major component of it is how to help coaches develop their, their coaching, I, with regard to, to running and sprinting. So in your internship program and the people that you work with at speed works, like how do you even begin to do that? Yeah, I think like, you know, you say that there's stark differences between the hundred meter sprinting and maybe preparing a, I dunno, a running back or a wide receiver to sprint. Um, and I would say yes, because the constraints of the environment and the task and the rules of the school, all of those feelings can influence your movement expression to some degree. But I like I'm a simpleton. I like to come back to it. The aim is to go from a, to B as fast as possible. What are some of the variables? The fact that normally we've got two arms, two legs, Well, normally we've got the same amount of gravity air resistance can change, but narrow enough, those things are similar regardless of if I'm on a track or if I'm playing soccer, running down the wing. Um, and so when I think about that, I'll go back to first principles and think, okay, well, velocity really is just distance times time. Right? So velocity, if I'm thinking about speed, I'm thinking about how far do I travel and how long does it take to do it? When I think about time, I think about, well to get foster. I travel when I'm on the ground, as well as when I'm on the air, when, when I'm in there. So I'm then taking those two pieces and then, and those are really the variables. You could go a bit further and say, well, some people, if they choose to be on the ground a bit more, maybe they extend and make bigger shapes on the ground. They have a bigger extension out in the back. Maybe they lift in the, a bit higher. Maybe they land on the ground a bit further out in front. And maybe as a result, they have to use more concentric, features that with the muscle contraction. And if you're someone that wants to spend more time in the air, maybe you don't need as much range out in the back. Maybe you spend more, maybe you really do lift your knee higher in the front because you want to use more pretension and what the ground, a bit harder. And as a result, maybe spend less time in the ground. You enjoyed the air and maybe are more elastic, maybe concentrate force isn't your go-to or at least you are very good at using your Lastic components too. And so that's as far as really, I want to go deep into it. Um, and the reason why that's, as far as I go is because it keeps me honest. It keeps me honest in saying, okay, well, yes, you can see some very, uh, Specific idiosyncrasies in a hundred meter sprinting. And yes, by all means we need to dial in and Polish to a smaller degree of percent that we need every little bit. But when you look at smooth sprinting in, in soccer, uh, and you look at smooth sprinting in a hundred meters, it's there to me, they're both doing the same thing they are having. They've all got those same components I just mentioned, and they are distributing and coordinating them in a smooth way. Of course, the run. And we, if we look at it that simply our thinking allows you to ignore and filter a lot of the noise that comes from your sport. Not of the noise that happens when you're looking at movement. Like when you look at someone run, I always say, um, just because you're looking at something doesn't mean, you see the same thing. We can both be looking at someone run and I could see big shapes. Cause I'm looking peripherally. You might see that the ankle collapses a lot on ground contact because you're looking very specifically at the ankle. So learning what to look at is just as important is knowing what a or knowing what to expect to see. And we can have certain expectations because we don't look in the right places. We get left thinking those expectations are right or wrong, but we're almost like a false positive or false negative. We need to see the big picture as well as know what to expect at the market level. Yeah. I've, I've really enjoyed some of the graphics that you've been putting out, you know, with the D and I'm thinking like, is this how Jonas mine works? Where like, it just goes from seeing this human being to then seeing this, like, you know, these joint angles and stuff like that. And I want to get pretty deep into the, the mechanics. Of sprinting. But before we do that, I kind of want to establish some terms. And one of the things I like about your program is you talk about like, okay, here's kind of what your I should see, but then you've got objective ways of keeping your eyes on us, but before we kind of even get that deep, like, so w one of the main constructs and running sprinting is okay, this front side, backside differentiation. So to you, how do you define, or look at front side and backside mechanics subjectively with your eyes, and then objectively in terms of things that you can actually measure with the technology you have. Yeah. Great. So, um, Oh, and McNally, who was one of the coaches for speed works has, has got a really cool article that we did together. I think it just came out in simply faster, and it goes in line with a few videos that I've put out on social media and a lot of our content. And really, it talks about front side mechanics and backside mechanics, neither are good or bad, right. If we draw a plumb line down the middle of a body, watching someone run in the sagittal plane front-side mechanics is literally what, what is the leg action happening when your foot and your hip is essentially in front of your plumb line? So we're going to talk about your foot and knee here. When they're in front of you, what are you doing is your knee blocking, and then reaccelerating down. And the fact that it's going down, the lower leg swings out, and then the leg comes back onto you, or maybe the leap, the knee blocks low. The leg swings out too far and you learn not really on front. So what's happening on the front side. And then the same thing for the backside. And I can't do backside of my finger. I don't have that amount of dexterity, but essentially once you're underground and your foot under your center of mass, how far does it travel behind your hip? When it's on the ground, does it travel as a foot narrow enough for the foot and nice, they relatively stiff keeping your hip high or actually as your hip travels over your foot and knee does your knee and shin drop and keep, and essentially allow you to fall down off of the contract. Um, and then lastly, once you've finished that push, do you extend and keep extending and get full ankle plantar flection and get a massive lumber extension and essentially go into lordotic position? Or do you find this position where you get some lumber extension it's necessary? Um, but actually your foot stays relatively. Dorsiflex still. And it's in a reflexive point that as soon as you finish extending, you can punch your knee forwards and essentially maintain that lumber pelvic posture that we know is stable, where, you know, if we're thinking about, um, the two, the two segments of the pelvis can one flex and sorry, can one, uh, posterially till and allow the need to get up in front whilst the other is going into anterior tilt and allowing yourself to extend. And when you're in that position, have you maintained essentially your, your pelvic posture in your lumbopelvic awareness so that you can get out of that and reflexively and, and, and, um, uh, elastically exchange your limbs at the right time. So front side mechanics for me, and if you talk to, Oh, and own always to be talking about the hip and the pelvis, And we'll be talking about the front front side mechanics with good backside mechanics all. And let me say it differently. Having some back and some front side mechanics is a great screen for pelvic health and pelvic control. And when you only have one of those things, um, and it takes away from the other side. So when you're very good front side, but you don't have the range to be, to actually extend against the ground whilst having in front of someone clinics illustrates and again, screens and tells you something around the interaction between the limbs, the interaction between the pelvis and essentially the limits to performance and health. Great. Thanks for that clarification. If I'm not mistaken, I think Owen's one of the people on your internship program. He has some really good case studies where he actually goes over. Okay. Like I'm going to assess an athlete from. Initial acceleration to top speed. And we're going to see that progression and there's things that he points out with his eyes where he just stops. And he says he had it. Did you see that? Like, that looks, that looks kind of off, but he also corroborates that with some objective data with some numbers. So, and one of the things about technology and metrics in sport is that I think there's a huge push to say, like, we need more data, we need more technology. But a lot of times I think we measure things that don't always matter. And if you're measuring things that don't matter now, you're just creating busy work for yourself. What I loved about your analysis and the internship program was these are things that are very, very simple and have a ton of applicability to things that you're going to coach. So, you know, you and Owen and the rest of your staff, what kind of technology and metrics are you, what technology are you using and what metrics are you tracking when it comes from. Initial acceleration through top speed. And I mean, even things that you think might be really obvious, like, you know, ground contact, time, stride, length, stride, frequency, let's just get really basic. And then some of the, yeah, for sure. And you know, when it comes to metrics, you're right. We measure what matters and what matters is, how do we is, is performance. So a to B a to B is like, where, how do we get from a to B that's the total time. So I want to know if I'm looking at a 10 minute a rep, I want to know first and foremost, how fast did they do it? Okay. So I'm going to say you run 10, 10 meters in two seconds. Yeah. You're a female football player. You ran it in two seconds. Great. I'm not, I'm also going to ask myself, but what velocity were you at when you reached your target? Okay. So I'm going to say your app seven meters per second, when you hit your target. Great. Really fast. Um, why is that important? Well, the story, and I've done this in a podcast before, but the story comes from the fact that if you've got two cars racing, you've got a drag car and I dunno, you've got our Ferrari, I don't know. You may have them run the Zachary the same time to 10 meters, two seconds, but one of them did a really aggressive first three or four meters. And then actually they were already close to seven meters per second, really early. They might've been above seven meters per second. And actually they've not averaged out over time. And maybe even decelerated before they got to 10 and the other one was a bit more gradual and they kept on continuing to accelerate all the way to 10 meters. So it's almost like the story of the. The tortoise and the hair, I guess maybe similar, similar kind of concept. And why is that important? Well, of course, if the race is only to 10 and no one cares about anything else, you want to get there as fast as possible. And if that's your strategy, that's your strategy. But there's this concept of efficiency. If you've got really fast and you've plateaued out, it really suggests that over these last three to four steps that you're breaking a law, it suggests that you're not in an efficient position. And it suggests that actually that by the time you get to 10, you will not be able to get any faster. So if I'm profiling zero to five or zero to 10 of someone that has to run beyond 10 meters, I want them to be at a very high velocity at 10, not just get to 10 in a fast time. What it also suggests is that you're in a position to maintain your pelvis. Uh, if you look to the team sports and you got to France, Bosch or John Pryor, it took a lot about this option position. It suggests that you're in a position with your pelvis, where if you needed to sidestep or put the brakes on or fend someone while she passed the ball, that you're in a position where your pro-vice allows you to have this upper body, this association, whereas someone who's got to five fast and is already decelerating, or just maintaining often the posture they look like is a bum kicking, falling over low hips, lots of type posture, which is not a great posture to respond to your environment. So that's my justification. I love to know the time, but more importantly, I want to know what velocity you're at that point. So then velocity is also something that's interesting. So across, let's say your a again, this same female, you'll probably take in seven steps to 10 meters. I want to know how dogs dot velocity change each step. And I want to know the makeup of that velocity. So I wanted to know, um, and a call on a farm is that if you can, in the first half of your 10 of your 10, or even in general, across the whole term, spend less time in the air, then you on the ground. Um, then it suggests that you're making the most of your acceleration. We can't accelerate women in the air. We can't change anything we're in the air. So air time is, is I'm going to say it with a tongue in cheek is useless in early acceleration because we want to be on the ground and we want to be making the most of the grounds. Um, my flip side to it before I forget to almost give my caveat is air. Time is great. If, when we, when and if we want distance. So if we apply a large force and we orientate it in an optimal way, it gives us air time and we can travel in the air before our next contract. So air time is critical in maximum velocity. Well, because actually when, when we've got our momentum, we've got short ground contact times, the aim is to get to bigger and bigger step lamps. Um, and in order to get to this bigger and bigger step glimpse, we do need to spend some time in the air. So add time and ground contact time, really easy to measure. And this term drive index is what is almost a combination of those friends and drive index is just literally your ground time divided by your air time. And we want to be able to see drive index change across the run. We want you to spend less time India. Oh, sorry. More time gradually in the air and less time on the ground. And so we see that change as driving. That gets smaller as more so that's air and ground and velocity. And then the last one is step and step frequency. So it comes back to velocity. It's just the makeup of our velocity. So when I'm looking at this velocity changing across each step, I'm asking myself, how did they make those changes? And I'm asking myself, did step lamp gradually increased during those changes and is step frequency in initial acceleration ramp up and your first two steps and then stayed relatively level across the road. So these are some things that are maybe counter-intuitive to people, but these are the general rules of the kinematics. And maybe I should have started that way. The general rules of kinematics is that speed should grow dramatically at the beginning. And then it tapers off that, uh, ground contact time should, should drop dramatically in the beginning. And it starts to taper off, start to stable stabilize that step length is just like speed should increase gradually and taper off. But the only one that has a different relationship is step frequency, which often two to three steps in an, in a aggressive acceleration of the two to three steps. It grows dramatically and then it levels off. And so having an understanding of those four key metrics and how they feed the most important metric, which has velocity helps us stay honest and helps us then look at running and ask ourselves not, does that look pretty? Or does that look like bolts? Because he's my model or have an argument and say that doesn't look pretty because it looks like Coleman and that's, that's someone else's model. Let's not, let's not fight about whose Dodges the better, because we liked the kind of scheme and instead ask ourselves, what's the goal velocity. What is the description of that is the effective, efficient, that's how effective they are. Efficiency is, um, sorry, I'll start again. What's the goal? It's how effective can they be? That's your target time? Right? How do we measure efficiency actually? Have you got a fast target time? We have a fast velocity once you got there. Another way of measuring efficiency. Of course, the run is the data smooth. And do you get there relatively effortlessly where you haven't had to change too many things dramatically? Um, and once you can see those things, we haven't talked about hip extension angles or, or body positions. We haven't talked about any of those other things that actually, when, if you start there, you can actually get a bit confused. We've really just talked about cause and effect. What's the most important effect that we want and what are the things that can cause a can create that effect and interacts together to create that effect. And then we look at the shapes and then we go, ah, okay, that makes sense. But when we look at the shape first, we can get so stuck in our bias that the numbers become almost like we, we poo-pooed the numbers and say they don't correlate with what we see, so they don't matter anymore. Right. So this is all about how we can change our own minds, how we can have open and a blank slate when it comes to assessing movement and having performance and efficiency, um, at the forefront of our judgment. Yeah. And one of the things I thought was cool about some of the case studies that you showed was that, you know, it's again, trying to balance the subjective with the objective. So Owen shows say like a rugby athlete accelerating up to 15 meters, and then somewhere around the fourth step, it looks like that that's kind of weird. Maybe the athletes stumbled and then you go to the data and it shows well on the fourth step, actually that athletes ground contact time should have been decreasing. The stride length should have been increasing, but it was the opposite. And for the task at hand, because the task was accelerated 15 meters, there's no opponent, Bayer. You're not, there's no reason to decelerate at that step. It's like, okay. So now what we're seeing with the numbers matches what my eye is seeing. Now we can make some kind of an intervention or point out to the athlete, like. Here's here's what you did. Here's how you violated the technical model. But we also have data to show that, you know, th there's a discrepancy between what actually is happening and what should be happening. And I want to backtrack a little bit too, because a lot of times with technology and data, even if we would love to have data, a lot of times the logistical or the financial burden prevents us from. So like these things you're talking about, you don't need a million dollar biomechanics lab. Can you talk about what you use to obtain this data? Because if I'm not mistaken, it's just an app on your phone and your iPad, which is like a game changer. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I've been lucky over the past 10 years, really to have a biomechanics team for British athletics work with me and my athletes. Um, and we've had, you know, a full layout of opt to jump, which is, you know, you put it on the ground. Each Mito is worth a thousand pounds. If you want 40 meters, it's a fire ground system. Um, plus you need the software to deal with it and the expertise to pull it together and make it work. And then we would also have a speed gun behind the athlete when a Lavin speed gun, which is worth about 15 grand. And again, you need to be very skilled in how you use it, and then they would have to go and chunk that stuff together and take a few days before I get it back. Right. And. That information was very critical in me learning and understanding what is important and what isn't and the biomechanics like Ross and Paul Bryce and Dr. Full Graham Smith have really, and Dr. Horns as well have really, um, being there to help me translate the complex into the simple, and then we found binary and in fact, Kaitlyn found binary when she was looking for a specific, a random app. And we realized that actually this app could do exactly what we want, just like dark fish can do it. You know, I, I have no stock in binary, so I can talk about the fact that there are other apps like starfish has done a great job. Can OVI has done a really good job. Quintek is more complex, but it's also very reliable of those reliables systems. Binary's just as reliable, almost exactly, but takes about a fifth or maybe a sixth of the time to process a video and audit calculations are done for you within the app. Whereas those other apps, it takes a lot of time to process the video. Then you've got to go and do the calculations in an Excel spreadsheet. So all of the ease is being pumped into this and yeah, all you need is quality video iPhone. In fact, we use iPhone eights sometimes because if we've got, if we're taking multiple videos that we haven't got the budget for iPhone 12, for everyone that we use, but we use the, some of the oldest art forms, which have really good quality, two 40 frame video, um, a tripod. So that it's steady. Um, when we're setting up the tripod, we go to the app, the, um, the spirit level app to make sure that the camera is level, right. And then we measure the distance. That's all the app needs. It needs to make sure that it's in line with the field of view and that the person that you're measuring, that you want to measure where they are running. We have some kind of measurement, so it can calibrate distance. So time is easy and distance is now calibrated. And then you can do every single calculation of the backup that you want to know the velocity of, um, of, uh, of the arm in, uh, in, you know, the average velocity of the arm swinging before it froze a bull. We can, we can do that. You want to know the rate of deceleration during which you're in, in a penultimate step. We can do that. You want to know the velocity in a run. We could do that. And so you can, as long as you've got the measurements and S and they're simple, it doesn't have to be an iPhone. I have no stock in Apple Iver. It can be a Samsung, it can be whatever it is. Um, but as long as it can record as slow motion, and you've got distance accurately measured that in front of you, your you've got your own biomechanics lab that you can take anywhere and use of everyone. And so what's the turnaround, like if you're working with an athlete in real time between, okay, like, I'm going to film this acceleration, how much time does it take you to. Upload the video and then be able to show the athlete what it is that you saw with your eyes. Can you that'd be done within the session that can be done within a session we tend not to, so it can take it all depends on what level of detail and how much you want. You want it across a couple of steps. It can be done within a few minutes, easy. You want it across the whole run and you want all your metrics. It might take 10 minutes to do one run. Now, the differences that I wouldn't always advise, I know in a clinical setting sometimes no, not even just, even in a performance setting, it is helpful to create buy-in and clarity for the athlete to show them the data. Right. But there is a level of paralysis for analysis that can occur when you make the information a bit too, um, too much about the numbers and not as much about the feelings. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I tend to, and what we've tended to do is provide reports, especially before and after reports. So, this is where you were before we didn't show you the numbers. Then we coached the hell out of you. And this is where you are now. Now I want you to see the numbers because I want you to see there's progress. That's it. I want you to see and understand that the model we're working towards, you're moving towards, but now we're going to put the numbers away. And I want you to look at the shapes. We're going to watch the video and we're going to say, look at the timing. Look at the movement. Look at the control. You've restricted, or you've increased range here. Um, you've hit a certain KPI in a certain shape. That's what is, um, more applicable to the athlete and that will allow them to quickly go and integrate it into their movement pattern. Um, so I think reports are for, uh, for, um, line managers and our for end of program reviews and those kinds of things by shapes and timing, um, and KPIs in terms of movement. Yeah. That's, that's the feedback we want to give to the athletes. Yeah. That makes sense. And I'm not suggesting that you should, or shouldn't do it within the session. It's more, you have the capability to, if you want. And the reality is like, you're not going to tell somebody when you're coaching them. Okay. Like I want actually you to change your drive index on the next rep, that's too abstract. Whereas, so you're going to coach shapes and positions and that kind of thing. Anyway. So I appreciate that clarification. I kind of want to do a little bit of a deeper dive now into drive index and just to reiterate that's the relationship between ground contact, time and airtime, and one of the things that was cool and you're simply faster article with Owen was that you talk about like within elites, There's a range of different drive indexes. It's a range like any model of movement. There's not optimal. There's not perfection, there's a bandwidth, but there are still some things, some patterns that you look for. And like, one of the examples you showed was an elite sprinter. And it said for an elite sprinter, you know, this, this athlete demo is relatively more backside. And like I'm watching the video and I'm like maybe for an elite sprinter, she's quote unquote backside. But I wish that the team sport athletes that I work with look like her because she looks a lot more front side in a good way. Then the team sport athletes that, that I look at. So we have this, this range and within elites, it gets really tricky because you only want to tinker so much. And maybe that strategy is the best strategy, but for team sport athletes and people that aren't as skilled at running with regard to drive index, like, is there a certain value, you know, above or below at which you say, okay, like. You are, you're violating certain technical principles of sprinting and this strategy is not adequate. Like, so what, is there a range where you say, I want an athlete regardless of their sport, their, their environment to be within a certain range. And then once they're in that range, that's when it gets, you're having to really fine tune things. Hmm. I'm just pausing here because I've just got a delivery. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to, Oh, he's actually just left it in and gone. No problem. Okay, cool. Um, is there a range? Yeah, I think, um, W w let's talk about, let's talk about max velocity running because it's easier to compute the driver next should be steady at this phase as opposed to changing step for step. Right? So I definitely, it's very, it's very, very clear that you can find individuals that spend around, I don't know, 0.9 on the ground or 0.09 on the ground. And it leaks the ground contact speeds. Um, I may be a 0.1, one two in the air, right? So they're spending more time in the ed and they are spending on the ground, but that more time in the air is just a bit more, right. It's not a dramatic amount in terms of different differential. Whereas what we tend to find, especially in team sport athletes, is that the air time isn't enough. I would hazard to say that 80% of team sport athletes, or just developing athletes that are trying to run faster, not just team sport, developing athletes too are limited in their time. So they D they tend to not show the drive index of what we would see with the other guys, because they just can't have enough airtime. The ground contact times might be okay. And the way they get faster, if we're going back to our equation of velocity, um, what I'm saying here is distance is limited for them. And in order to get more distance, they will need to spend a bit more air time. And so that's what we tend to see where some individuals is that their frequency on the ground or that frequency across their max velocity is adequate. It's good. Maybe it's too fast relative to the fact that they don't have enough distance. And in order to get faster, increase in distance is needed in order to increase density distance, that's needed to project themselves a bit higher in the air and be in the air for a bit longer. And it all just comes all the way back down to just vertical force. Can they drive their leg into the ground really aggressively? So that is stiff. Their hip gets pushed up and maybe that also reduces their ground contact time. So tend to see is that for some individuals that drive index is, is still very much close to what it was like in acceleration phase. And instead, what they needed to do is spend less time in the ground, more time in the air so that they can travel. That frequency doesn't change much because they've exchanged some of that ground time with air time. And in order to know, frequency stays the same, their distance increases. I never lost the improves as a result. Right. So if we're looking at like the elites where there there's this range within the elite population, there might be a sprinter that you would categorize based on drive index. It was like more of a, more of a pusher, more of a, somebody who relies on forest and elasticity, but in team sport athletes, what you tend to see as people are, are over pushing, even relative to those elites that you would classify as pushers within the elite population. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you still see the difference in people's qualities in team sports. You see it in every, in every walk of life, there are different people who would rather spend more time on the ground than in the, uh, it just tends to be that actually, if you're going to separate teams, schools to, or if you want it to just make. Or team sports athletes run faster from, let's say, 20 to 30 meters. That generally the issue is not enough air time for sure about that. Okay. So it seems like the example, a lot of team sports is pretty obvious because there's, there's a big disconnect between, you know, what most people would accept as the mechanical model of sprinting and then how they're executing the task at max velocity, where I think it gets trickier. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. As within that elite population, you've got this bandwidth where you're saying, okay, these people fit within the bandwidth of what we think is acceptable for a drive index. Some might be more push, push, oriented, force oriented, some are more front side and elastic oriented. And I think then when you're trying to make those athletes, the elites faster, there's always the age old question of, do you, do you try to have somebody double down on what makes them good? Well, you try to give them what they don't have. So if you have, let's say an elite who more like front side and elastic, you have them. Okay. We're going to, we're going to make you double down on that strategy. We're going to make you more elastic. We're going to have you be more of a hammer, more of a whip in the front, or do you say, okay, like, we're going to teach you to, to push more and see what happens. How do you kind of go about answering that question? Cause that to me is like the, really the fascinating one. That's where it's obviously it's very subjective. There's an art to it, but I'd love to hear your, your thoughts on that. Um, before I would S before I even talk about if they should be pushed more or they need to be in the front more, I would come back to the data and I'll say, what is my target? Do I feel like, um, so let's say I've got, uh, again, let's go back to acceleration. Cause it might be simpler. I'm seeing the step of growing and growing and then suddenly it dips down and then it grows up again. And then I watched a running and I see it grow. And I see what in the running, it seems decent, optimal. The step before the step plan goes down. So let's say step limp goes down is step five, right? I look at step four and I realize this push dominant athlete, who's getting bigger and bigger pushes doesn't change his angle and doesn't reduce his ground contact time. Instead, when he gets to step free or four, he pushes again, even longer, even bigger extension out the back because he wants to use his strength. He likes the feeling of what he did in the first three steps, and he wants to continue to do it. He isn't deciding that he needs to transition and reduce those ground contact times and increase his hip heart. He's not doing what, what we're saying is the normal progressions in the kinematics. He's decided to disobey a law to, to, in order to continue doing what felt good. So in that scenario, you just go, okay, well you did too much of that. As a result you lost, even if you only had a bit of front side in order to do that, you lost all of your front side. So then actually we just bring it back in and go. You've become to backside in the action. Let's reign you back in. I'm not saying you should now all of a sudden spend all your time in a year and get everything caught in front. I know already what is close to optimal for you? Because when I see the day to doing what it should do, I'm observing what is optimal for your pattern in that process. And when I see the date at DePaul, I'm probably observing you almost obsessing around what's optimal and ignoring the other side of the coin. So I would always come back to the data before I say anything. I would always come back to data because the easiest way, especially in teams was the easiest way to make someone faster is to balance out. They aced the asymmetries limb to limb, but also face to face in the run. Simplest way to make them foster is the first place to go because it, it, it has a massive transfer to health and performance and doesn't require overspeed and really trying to heighten their nervous system. It's just about coordinating their limbs and coordinating that process across the running. Yeah. And I also, I kind of biased you with the question because it's like, well, there, there, there is a strategy that you don't think is the right strategy, but oftentimes are biases that it has to be a technical intervention. I had Bouchet and later on a couple of weeks ago, when he talked about how sometimes maybe people talk about like, self-organization, they can't self organize to achieve the task in an efficient way because they don't have the tools to do it. So maybe it's more of a GPP type issue, which you guys talk about in your internship. Maybe, maybe the solution is not a technical cue or intervention. It's something in the weight room or it's something physio related because maybe they had a previous surgery and that's where this stuff gets fun because you can't just say, well, we're always going to do this in this situation because. Yes, it's a technical model, but there's also variables that, that technical model relies on them. If those aren't developed, then no matter how much you cue the athlete can't achieve what it is that you want. Yeah. Teaching and training is a big part of my philosophy. And what I mean by that is no matter what I see, technically I'm thinking, how can I teach it? I've uh, I've, uh, provide a cue or provide a constraint that encourages a movement pattern. Um, and how do I train it? And that might be what is the work rest ratio? What is the kind of resistance they're using in their, in their resisted running? What are the, um, what's the type of exercise choice I'm choosing river in again, in the plyometric sort of running to, to stimulate that motor unit or that muscle system or that joint or that chain, but also what's the underpinning physical quality, right? Like what, what do I do if my special chef, what do I do with my explosive ship? What do I do with my slow strength? Um, what am I doing with my stabilizing muscles? What am I doing with physiotherapy and osteopathy to get the joint, or to get the off the bone, to sit in the correct place in the joint? What am I doing with we've just, um, mindfulness to get the athlete, to be aware of those joints and those positions so that when they're doing the maybe slow strength or their body weight conditioning, physio type exercises, that they're actually piecing it together with the movement patterns that they want and doing it in the postures that they need to do. Um, so by all means teaching and training is everything I've gone down the road of just trying to coach the hell out of things. And in those scenarios, people have sometimes got paralysis for analysis. Sometimes they perform really well, but haven't had the capacity to continue performing very well. So they break down and we look at the mechanics, the mechanics is great, but what's the issue. They just can't tolerate training. They can't tolerate running like that intensity. Maybe that's a good problem to have, you've taken them to the end of their bandwidth and I've done it the other way around as well, where I'm like, Hmm, I can't really change its movement pattern very well. So I'm going to, I'm going to strengthen the hell out of it. And again, they get to a limit where that, that inefficiency, no matter how much you get the muscles strong and the system strong around it, the inefficiency still will, will bear his head at really high intensities. And maybe it's a bit more catastrophic in that scenario because you've basically given a baby a bazooka. Right. So you, yeah. So, so that you've got two sides to the coin. And then actually I like a lot of Brad Luis's work has really kind of pointed me towards this. Is that actually just, just look at what are the. The, the, I guess the fundamental requirements of the event, can we reverse engineer that and say, what are the physical components needed? The underpinning physical qualities? And actually, can we create a smooth, uh, phase potentiation? So a smooth progression across our, our phases across our sessions so that we don't shock the system too much, but we provide ever increasing amounts of specificity that are coming from maybe less specificity, but more appropriate load. So by the time we get to our peaking or by the time it gets to phase, we really want to intensify training. They are both familiar and, um, they're both familiar to move at pattern, but also physically prepared for the metabolic stress and the mechanical stress that's going to come from that movement plan. And, and that's why we use a lot of resistance sprints, because no matter if you're doing light spreads, medium or heavy, you can both stress the force requirements and the physical requirements as also have resistance, sprints, slow down and movement. So we can coach it. The athlete can feel it. We can do more repetitions, they can change and edit their movement pattern. We've been the rep, not just at the end of the wreck, um, or before the next rep, they can do it within. And so that's my concept or my, or at least how I tried to concept conceptualize teaching and training in all of my coaching. I see a movement pattern as an issue. First easiest solution. I'm going to say something or I'm going to point on and talk to the athlete about something and cue them towards something. Does it change it? Great. Easy is probably not a physical thing. Does it change it for a short amount of time and under a level of fatigue? It disappears. Maybe it's still as a physical fit. Right or kind of not change at all. It probably definitely is a physical thing. Let's go away and change. It doesn't mean I have to go now squat two times body weight in a jitter doesn't mean I have to go and create 6,000 Newtons on a Nord board or do something on my hand. Dynamometry that's not the swings. It obviously ended the other side of the spectrum. It just means that maybe to, in maybe to, to encourage that movement, to encourage the required motor unit recruitment and the synchronization and, and, uh, and the, um, the joint coupling and all the important things we need from the, almost the neurological end of performance. We've got to create some mechanical stress that's appropriate that allows the body to either give you the, the, the, I guess, the. The building blocks needed to do what you want to do over here or tells the body it's okay. It gives, it gives the body an option to turn off the inhibition that we're blocking from here. I don't have the skill to tell you which one it is. Um, and I don't know if the science is strong enough to tell us exactly what is actually happening. I know it's a bit of both, so I'll go for a bit of both. I sit on the fence, right? So you just, as a coach, you're trying to give an athlete options through the totality of your program so that when they have to pick a strategy to achieve a task, they're not just relying on, you know, one or two options that because you've, you've established that variability in GPP in your program is not a hundred percent cool. So I want to shift gears a little bit to talk about submaximal running. Cause a lot of times like there's this huge technical emphasis when it comes to max velocity sprinting, but in team sports, especially, you know, a lot of times the game changing play is a current max velocity, but. Most of the running that occurs is submaximal and you know, there's kind of two schools of thought. One of them is, well, we don't need to worry about it because it's a maximal and the other one as well, every ground contact kind of counts and there can be a structural or even a neurological or physiological costs to those submaximal ground contact. So does your thought process, technical model, the things that your metrics are looking at, does it change at all when you're talking about submaximal running? Is that something that you're even you're, you're working on with your athletes or do you tend to focus more on the philosophy side of things? No, I'm definitely one to use some maximal running with my athletes and with my teams we'll play as, and rehabbers and, um, for a variety of reasons is needed in the program, right. It might just be from a general work capacity. It might be because the culture of the team is one where they, they do it and the club, the coach wants to see it, and it's an important metric that they use. Um, but also running some maximally sometimes can be a great. Environment for learning. Yes. You know, it can be slow enough for you to make mistakes and continue. So again, the same thing I said with acceleration, you can make changes within the rep. Um, it's slow enough. Uh, so some maximal running or let's call it extensive tempo here where you're maybe moving around four, five, six meters per second, maybe. Um, and you're doing it in, in an aerobic zone. So in complete recoveries, you know what to rest ratios that are really sure. Um, that would be the zone that you want to work in. Now, does that have to be doing gasses or doing back to back reps or just running free Ks or 300 meters? It doesn't have to be if we're deciding that the zone almost like my speed metrics. If we're saying that in order to get submaximal running goals, the constraints are the velocity. You're moving out the work to rest ratio. That's probably all those constraints and the volume and the total volume. Um, why can't we do it as a technical endurance session? Why can't we do a mixture of, if you want to run back to back hundreds, that's not a problem, but actually when the posture, pelvic posture, uh, completely disappears when they start learning out in front of their center of mass, when they start having larger multi-locations on the ground and stop using their hip flexors and hamstrings, actually, what I mean by that is now start to rely more on their quads, to push in a number of spines to extend. Um, and you know, when you find yourself in that position, you know, that your session is now starting to strengthen the fringe or trying to erase. You're getting strong and fit at running with bad backside mechanics or getting strong and fit at putting your pelvis in a position that you don't want it to be in. Um, and so I definitely believe that, uh, maybe just because I've been forced in a variety of team cultures to find a way to make their work work, like whatever they're doing, you have to find a way, um, I've resorted to calling most of our endurance work, technical endurance and finding ways to achieve the task of the session. The volume, the intensity is the work to rest ratios, but do it in a creative way. That means that we're doing nothing but, um, enduring good position. We are creating clarity about good positions. And more importantly, when we are distracted by fatigue and by our muscles burning, we are going deeper into that. Mind-body connection to say, even though my mind tells me, stop or do it a different way, I will overcome it and I will continue to do what I know is more efficient. What I've been taught that is more efficient. And what actually, if I actually do, does feel more efficient, but guess what? It challenges my hip flexors and probably more than anything, it challenges my obliques more. It challenges me to use areas that really fatigue have already fatigued into the session. Guess what? My erectors, they're still strong. I can use them. Guess what? My lumbar spine it does. It doesn't want to do that, but I'm going to use it to do something else. And so it started actually. It then makes us question how we've physically prepared our athletes in the first place. If that's where they revert to. We talk about self-organization right. If that's where they revert to, then maybe the areas that we want to be strong, aren't really strong. Right? And so I talk about stress test the easiest way to know where your athletes are, is just to do a stress test, make them run as fast as possible. We've known cues, what they revert to tells you where they're strong and where they're not strong, or take them to the element of fatigue. We've known cues where they revert to is, is really where their strength is. And then all of our endurance and any of our capacity needs to be about keeping the main thing, the main thing. And if you want fast athletes who can do repeat sprints, who can sprint in the last 18 minutes of a rugby game or, or sprint in the last quarter, in a game, in a, you know, a game saving tackle or game winning, um, try or touchdown, um, you really need to make sure that every element of sprinting in your program. Even under fatigue is teaching them what you want them to do. That makes sense. And since you're, you're on that subject, I'd like to ask coaches like you this question, because, you know, I think there's a lot of ways you could do it, but when it comes to developing that repeat sprint ability, you know, some people say to develop repeats printability you should do repeat sprints, but kind of the downside of that as well. If you're doing that, you have to treat it like a high intensity day. You're not really running at max velocity. Um, and then there's others who say, you know, I'm going to do my extensive tempo work, my max velocity work. And that's all I need to develop repeats printability. So if you don't have a technical coach or a sport coats, it's telling you, Hey, I want you guys to do repeat sprints. If it's totally up to you, how do you prefer it to develop, repeat sprint stability, generally sport athletes. Um, it's easiest to describe it from a track and field perspective because, um, in team sports, it's so hilarious sometimes because people are arguing. Um, just different sides of a coin, right? Then they're not accepting the fact that they're on the same coin. They're just arguing that my side is better than your side is like sharing, you know, repeat sprint stability is the, is the whole coin. And one side is the aerobic capacity or, or anaerobic reservable, or however you want to put it, which is essentially, can you recover? Right? Can, can you, can you buffer energy systems or buffer metabolites and keep going? Can you go again? Yeah. And the other side is the sprint, you know, CA have you got the mechanical properties and the technical application to rise your, um, to, to run very, very fast. So those are the two sides of the coin. So when you find individuals who are very fit, let's say that that is six, five meter sprints. And the first one is very similar to the last one. That's someone that's very fit. How do you make them better? Repeat sprint stability? You can either do more repeat sprint stability. To expose them to the intensity or that drew, or you can just do more sprints because they have the ability to buffer. You increase their ability to get to an intensity. Then it comes to get her in the middle and the vice versa applies as well. Right. If you've got someone that's really fast in their first rep in a differential between the first and last is huge, then. By all means they need to be able to endure it more. You can ask the question, do they need to enjoy all the metabolites or actually are they inefficient in their running? And so actually they're just losing locks through mechanical wasted deceleration and leaking energy side to side. Um, so that there is a, there is a two sides to that, to that question, of course, but essentially getting them any faster may not be the limiting factor if getting them faster makes them more efficient. Yes, it does help. But efficiency becomes more of a big deal and becoming efficient might mean dropping the intensity and giving them more reps to become efficient in, in them, in their energy systems, as well as in their movement patterns, but in team sports. Um, so in athletics we tend to do both or we use both sides of that coin at the appropriate time. Right. And that just basically means that in if I had 12 weeks to create, repeat sprint stability. And let's just even the, I say my first four weeks, I am. In tandem, creating technical insurance and upright work capacity, high volume drills, and some tempo work. Um, and I'm doing a high volume drills and maybe some East centric hamstring in Eastern chick cough as well, or I'm creating the mechanical properties I want, um, with the work capacity and on the other side of the coin or in a separate session, I'm developing acceleration resistance sprinting. I'm doing all my teaching. I'm doing lots of repetitions and, and building just a massive forceful and well orientated engine. Those are my two sides in my next phase. I'm probably making sure that I would, I would assume I've created some decent capacity. I will continue to work on some capacity, but I'm going to intensify it a bit. I'm going to allow them to run a bit more intensive level, but I'm still keeping in some of the submaximal work. And my acceleration work is now no longer just, uh, resisted runs and confirmation wants to maybe 10 meters and 15, I'm actually accelerated to 30. I'm complete in the run. I, my acceleration session almost looks like a speed session. It's a complete run across the board. And so by the end of that phase, I know I both have the technical ability as well as the work capacity to sprint. But then in this last phase, I'm not going to sprint, I'm going to do my repeat sprints. I'm going to go again and again and again. And I might even do it once or twice a week because I know I've built my, the two ends of that spectrum by the easiest way to get good at doing anything is just to do it right and do it again. And again, now it takes a massive toll and that's why one, I would wait until the last phrase to do it. And then secondly, I probably only need to do it for between three and six weeks, maybe sporadically to get the, the, to get the stimulus I need. Um, for long enough. So everyone is arguing MAs MAs, Oh no. 75%. Charlie Francis says no mid zone. Um, and then actually you go and watch lost Brown and train the best sprinters in the world. Or you watch rain, a train and in different scenarios, they will use a lot of mid zone work or they won't. And when they do, when they use a lot of mid zone work, what else is in the program is the first question when they don't use it, now use more aerobic work. Okay. What else is in the program? That's the real question. And it's what all baking a cake and we've maybe all got different ingredients by the end of the day, she'll do it as birthday and she needs a Mickey mouse cake and you have to find a way, right. We've just had one. So that's why I said that you have to find a way, you just have to find a way. Um, and instead of arguing that, that you want yours to be purple or African violet or mode, it's like, that's not the point. You need your cake and you need it to be the right consistency and not give, uh, give people food poisoning. Right? So you need athletes to be able to do their sport. The worst case scenario of their school. And the worst case scenario already to me is in, in a five minute section, what's the highest velocity you would reach. And how many times would you have to accelerate decelerate? Um, within that section, how many times do you have to sprint and you top that up and you say that's the worst case scenario in a game? How many of those worst case scenarios or what variation of those things happen within a game and okay, I've got 12 weeks to get ready for that. How am I going to progress at my team to get to that point? And in some scenarios, you also have a coach who maybe you have a coach who, um, is easier to soccer, uh, who trains a lot. He has a long training sessions, laundry rules. He doesn't blow the whistle and stop them after one or two or three minutes. We've been a drill. The drills are extended six, eight minutes long. So there might be some intensity. But that's not really repeat sprint. And really that is really just injuring medium sprints and repeat excels, Excel DeSales. So in that scenario, you need to top up with some high intensity work and maybe some high intensity repeat work in a small period of time. Good, really nice work to rush ratios between the sets, but you need a set where you can learn really fast, have a bit of recovery and run really fast. Again, maybe do that two to four to five times, and then have six minutes. You have five minutes because that's, what's missing from your training, right? And vice versa. You might have a coach that is really good. Has a tactical periodization model may be in football is really good at giving people great intensity, easy designs, great drills have good open space and good constraints. And they have great intensities. He's really good at, we stopped watching him when he needs to coach. He speaks when he doesn't need to coach, he doesn't coach. And so he keeps the recovery short when it needs to, in that case. What do you need to do apart from just make them faster and keep them healthy? Because the appropriate work to rest ratio is needed to deal with. The worst case scenario is happening. Repeat sprints is happening in the game. In training multiple times, they will get fit. You talked a bit to the best football coaches, rugby coaches. So soccer coaches, rugby coaches who have great managers and head coaches. And they will say they don't really need to do much conditioning apart from maybe the first two to three weeks of the preseason. And you you'll say, why don't you do a bleep test? Don't you do 30, 15, don't you do all these other fitness type things MAs. And they said, no, we'd get it done in training. The way, the way the foot water rugby is designed creates the conditioning for them. So they don't have to worry about that so much. They just do some top-up if they really need to, but all they need to worry about is getting their players faster and making sure that they are able to transfer that speed to the event. Thanks for reconciling both sides of that coin. Um, and then kind of in closing, I wanted to ask you, cause you've been talking about, you know, your coaching and then how you keep your coaching. I honest, can you give an example of a time when maybe, you know, something passed the eye test to you, but then you actually looked at the data and you said, oops, I was wrong. I actually want to intervene and make a change. I fit in the first, when it comes to mind, it's not the right example here, but it's important. And I was always taught that your frequency increases across the run until you get to your top speed. I was always taught. And when you watch a run, that's what it looks like. And that's what it sounds like. But when you look at frequency, that's not the truth. Two to three steps in, and your frequency is already near its max. So what is changing ground contact time, ground contact time is reduced in every step. The range. So they get the hips are getting higher. So the amplitude of the legs look a lot bigger, but yet the ground contact time is getting smaller and the frequency is remaining the same. So it's, you're making bigger and bigger and bigger shapes across the run. So visually it looks that way that they make a bigger shape spot. They're spending less and less time on the ground. So it's a bit of an optical illusion. And so that's really important for us to recognize because some of the things that maybe we were taught I was taught were, were not necessarily inaccurate, but they probably were there just like it was going to be black and white about it that were inaccurate in the reality of what we see are very accurate. And that's what it's good to coach another coach, a junior coach. I would say that they're getting that they're going to move fast and foster of course, to run, but it's not the truth. And it may be differently. I've coached some really fast kids. So I coached a young boy to run sub 10 and a hundred and it was great. And so I coached the rest of the squad to look like him to practice his model. So to do what he did when he did it. And it made half of the group foster and half group slower. And then a few years later I coached another kid. He didn't run some, tell him about you run ten one, and he run 10 own and run a sub 10 windy. And, um, he looked opposite to that original guy. And I think I was only able to coach that individual to run fast because some of my focus for a variety of reasons had moved away from that original person. And I was able to see that athlete for who they were. And then a year or two later, I had another guy run sub 10 and he kind of looked like a combination of those first two guys. And so really the moral of the story for me was that I needed to then look at the data and our go, okay, when all free athletes run their fastest, they have the similar type of rhythm and how the data changes. And when I forced an athlete to look like. What another athlete looked like. Actually his data was very, very shaky. It was very, very zig-zaggy. He was having to make some really massive compensations in his running style in order to fit the mold I was forcing him into. And so he looked like he was making a similar shapes, the forces, the velocities, the progression, the smoothness was all gone. Um, and so that's probably the most important thing here is that before we trust our eye, let's make sure we understand what are the variables we really want. And then it's easier to make judgment on the exercises. It's kind of like EMG and M and a, and an exercise selection, right? We can believe a certain exercise does a certain thing, but until we've really got some understanding of the muscle activation, it creates, um, bearing in mind that EMG has to be accurate and not too noisy. But as soon as we have a bit more understanding into some of the deep, the deep numbers that really support it, It's only then that we can start to make, make an accurate selection of exercise. Uh, same thing for, uh, underpin of physical qualities. When we understand moment on bias around hamstrings, for example, and we recognize that when your hip is in full flection, so your knees are in front of you, that it does a massive, it puts your, I got to Magnus in a great place of advantage to, to be used as a hip extensor. So, so actually, if we don't know that if we don't know the muscle architecture, if we don't understand that, then we would potentially assume that it's not involved as much. And we would only be thinking about normal hamstrings. We'd only be talking about the glue, but by understanding the, the muscle architecture and the functional anatomy, we can start to delve deeper into understanding when someone's in that knees up and they don't know how to attack the ground from that position, we can cure it all we like, but we also have to go and select some exercises. Um, and, and target some muscle groups to really enhance it. And so I, I guess they're all similar examples of saying, wow, it's great to use all. I, we have to use our eyes because that's how we can make quick decisions in practice and inaction, but we must calibrate our eye to the numbers, the data, the research that really supports those movements. Yeah. And I would say that the best thing about your internship is you talk about how to develop that eye, but also calibrate it. So in closing, and we've only scratched the surface as to the content that you cover there, where can people learn more about your, your internship program, the kind of work you're doing and that sort of thing. Um, so in my company speed works stock training. So you can, you can find us on, on internet, on our website, uh, on Instagram, uh, on, on, uh, Twitter, uh, I'm eat, sleep, train underscore on most of those platforms. So I, I post just as much as we do, maybe sometimes more than we do for our business. Um, and yeah, you can, you can find out through, through those normal platforms. Um, and we have the internship running again soon. Um, so yeah, by all means jump onto that. And there's more than 40 hours of material pre-recorded material case studies from a whole range of different practitioners, be it physios and, um, some of the best hamstring, rehabbers and knee rehabbers and SNC coaches and just normal coaches track and field coaches. So we've got lots of variation, um, lots of good guest speakers, but more importantly, lots of case studies to make sure that it's actionable. But the biggest thing I want to get from the program is that people could take it away. And apply it straight away in their environments and feel better and not just feel better, but be better as coaches. And so after this first cohort, I'm really pleased and, and happy and you've given us a great recommendation. So thank you for having me on this. Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Excellent. Thank you very much.  

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