E63 | Jarred Boyd: Pro Sports Influence
Jarred Boyd is a board-certified sports Physical Therapist where he is currently serving as a Performance Therapist for the Memphis Grizzlies of the NBA. He has performed clinical rotations at The University of Tennessee, United States Air Force Academy, and EXOS. His practice revolves around addressing biomechanical and neurophysiological patterns to positively influence performance and construct effective reconditioning continuums with a significant emphasis on psychosocial and contextual factors that influence the pain experience. As a clinician, his goal is to facilitate a return to activity and enhance patients' potential by identifying opportunities to increase resiliency (through competency, capacity, and confidence) and empowering them with the strategies to perform for life.
- Jarred’s background as a PT and ATC
- Transitioning from outpatient sports physical therapy to professional sports
- Unique clinical aspects of working with NBA players
- How sports medicine staffs can actually mitigate the risk of injury
- What qualities are modifiable, relevant, and measurable
- What data and key performance indicators does Jarred use to influence his clinical decision making
- What does “functional” training mean and the downside of overemphasizing dynamic correspondence
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Episode Transcription: Welcome to the Resilient Performance Podcast. I'm your host, and today I'm joined by Jarred boy. Jarred is a board-certified sports physical therapist where he is currently serving as a performance therapist for the Memphis Grizzlies of the NBA. He has performed clinical rotations at the university of Tennessee, the United States air force Academy, and EXOS. His practice revolves around addressing biomechanical and neurophysiological patterns to positively influence performance and construct effective reconditioning continuums with a significant emphasis on psychosocial and contextual factors that influence the pain experience as a clinician, his goal is to facilitate a return to activity And enhance patients' potential by identifying opportunities to increase resiliency and empowering them with strategies to perform for life. Jarred and I discussed what it was like a transition from the traditional outpatient sports physio setting to the NBA. There are benefits and drawbacks to each setting. We also discussed areas in which performance staffs can truly make a difference with the emphasis on dynamic correspondence and skill acquisition in the field. It can be easy to forget the qualities that strength coaches and physios can actually modify in a relevant and quantifiable way. Additionally, Jarred shares what data and key performance indicators he uses to influence his clinical decision-making. Hey, Jarred, thank you so much for coming on. There's a lot of stuff we've been talking offline for a while. So, I wanted to get going with the recording here, but can you begin by talking about, we're going to get into kind of your journey as a clinician. But just start by talking about, um, you know, you're a physical therapist and a certified athletic trainer. How did w what's kind of the overlap between those two professions and how did, because I know that sequentially, you started out as an ATC first, what kind of made you decide after, you know, getting your ATC to get into PT? Because there are seemingly a lot of overlap and I think that you and I probably both know athletic trainers and PTs that we would consider somewhat interchangeable. So, I think that there should be actually more collaboration between those two professions having done both. Can you kind of speak to what that experience was like? Oh, absolutely. I think, um, you know, for me, I was lucky in that I had an opportunity to actually, uh, have both of those degrees coincide with each other at the same time. So I went to Shenandoah university. And for Virginia, and it was a dual degree program where I was able to get my masters in athletic training and then the doctorate in physical therapy simultaneously with an overlap in regards to the classes. So, uh, for me, it was great because I was really able to see the juxtaposition between the two, uh, professions, but also the things that, that really coincide with each other. And so when I think back on my experience specifically, I think the, the. Positive for me was that my professors for athletic training were all PTs as well. So every athletic trainer, uh, professor were also physical therapists and they all had their, their CSCs. So they all had this, uh, reconditioning kind of performance, strength conditioning, if you will, uh, backgrounds. So they were really able to kind of marry that into the curriculum. And so the, the athletic training, uh, courses actually started a semester prior to. Physical therapy courses. And so I was able to kind of entrench myself in a better understanding of, of, of what movement and musculoskeletal rehab really looks like, uh, prior to physical therapy courses started. Um, but then even, you know, when I really take another step back and say, well, what, what is the big difference? Because as you stated, there, there is a lot of overlap in regards to what both entities are able to do, um, from, from. You know, plinths to play or, or table to tire, uh, from, from a reconditioning perspective. And I think the big delineation. For me was learning and being more equipped with the ability to, to triage injuries when they first happened. So looking at things that were a little bit more traumatic or, or things that we had to determine whether or not this warranted a little bit more further investigation from. Perhaps a imaging standpoint or some kind of surgical procedure or determining whether or not this athlete is able to actually go back onto the field or to, to practice right here today. So, you know, and, and physical therapy school, I don't think we're really equipped to discern that as much. Uh, I, I know that curriculums are steadily, always evolving and updating, but I think that the big delineation. Um, for me, it was just the ability to feel a little bit more comfortable. If someone came off of the court in the field, whatever it may be. Uh, and they have some kind of a, an injury and having the skill set to, to understand what tests are going to be maybe a little bit more appropriate to use in order for me to discern whether or not this individual has the necessary capacity or requirements to return to play. Uh, again, not saying that that physical therapists don't have the capacity to do so either. No, but that's probably the biggest delineation. And then I'll, you know, I wouldn't even venture to say. And, and maybe this is, this is just, uh, my particular experience, but maybe like that, that later stage reconditioning or rehab. Um, as I said, I felt comfortable in that I was equipped with the knowledge and experience to gain those skills with athletic training, but, but physical therapy and then some of my just personal clinical experiences. And physical therapy school probably allowed me to ascertain those skills a little bit more than a athletic training. So like those, those in, in stage reconditioning kind of programs and periodization schemes, if you will, which again, even with physical therapy, I'm saying. Yes, I got that more there than 80, but a lot of those even just came from, from personal readings and, and outside resources as well, because you know, physical therapy school is really just about making you more of this, this generalist. And you have the ability such reverse any domain, whether it be. Um, you know, neuro rehab or, or geriatric or sports, uh, and, and obviously it's up to the individual to kind of immerse themselves further and whatever kind of, of field they're looking to get into. So those are kind of like the, the, the big delineations and admittedly for me, it's, you know, right now, and really ever since then, a lot of my clinicals that haven't really practiced as a, uh, as an athletic trainer. So. I mean, you know, if somebody said you're going to be the head athletic trainer right now, and it's your responsibility to go out and do X, Y, Z. Uh, I'm not sure if I'm the most equipped to be able to do that. Um, but there are just because of the fact that it takes, um, a lot of repetitions and it takes a lot of exposures to seeing different things and understanding some of the nuances of how to handle, uh, even things that are really minor, um, how to handle those, those occurrences in those instances. Yeah, I didn't realize that you had pursued the ATC and the, the, um, PT degree congruently. Um, I'm pretty sure now and correct me if I'm wrong that the ATC path is, is a master's program, but at one point, I think you could get your ATCs and undergrad. So, you know, people would always would often ask, like, what do you think is the best, um, the best undergraduate route to go before getting into a performance type field or even physical therapy. And I always thought, at least while it was an undergraduate degree, ATC was the way to go because you have this versatile skillset where I think that there are even though kind of like the, um, as you sort of validated, like the assumption is that ATCs cater to more of like the acute and the things. I think that there are probably more ATCs that are competent at end stage rehab. And there are PTs that are competent at the acute traumatic type care. So I think that like overall, like it may sound like religious. I think ATS might have. The good ones, at least a broader skillset than many of the PT. So like, if you get this ATC credential as an undergrad, you can always still get a PT school. But now that you've graduated where you've got a clinical degree, but somewhat versatile, you can segue that into performance and get like a CSCs or get, you know, get more into the strength and conditioning side of things. So. And then now with that being a master's degree, it kind of changed that calculus, because I think you've probably seen this. A lot of people always ask, like, should I go to PT school? And what the amount of debt and time involved, that's a difficult decision. And I feel like when there was an undergraduate ATC credential, I would tell them most people are like, why don't you get your ATC first and see if to see if that gets you where you want to go before you make that kind of commitment. Um, but I think it's cool that you, you had that dual dual program. I didn't even realize there were that many of those. So were you doing that? Was it like when you, after undergrad that you did that? Or was it one of those, like say six year programs where you're getting your undergraduate and your DPT? How did that work? Yeah. So for me, it was kind of wild because I, so I went to undergrad at VCU, Virginia Commonwealth university. Uh, and I had about, I want to say maybe one to two weeks off, uh, once I had graduated undergrad and then I started at Shenandoah university. Uh, in the athletic training program for that, that summer. So it went from, uh, maybe, uh, may or June until August. And then once August came around, then I started the physical therapy classes, but they also, again, coincided with the athletic training classes as well. So those then became a little bit more of like our online didactic classes for athletic training, but we also had, um, Clinical rotation. So we would go to physical therapy school and we would be in class from whatever time it was eight or nine until three to four. And then, uh, the, the ones that the people that were dual degree, uh, majors 80 and PT would then go to their, uh, their, their delegated high schools to do their clinical rotations. So you would be there. Covering the sports from four or five to eight or nine, depending on if there was a game and then you would go home and then you would have your, your work to do whether it was for PT or your online classes for AC. So it was a, it was a lot of work, but, uh, you know, again, in hindsight, it's like though that experience, I think is what allowed me to have maybe a little bit more of this organizational skillset and, and be a little bit better in regards to prioritizing time and understanding, uh, where I was allocating my resources. So obviously like, because you were in a DPT program, but they want to prepare you for the boards and give you that kind of generalist education. Did you find that because you were pursuing your ATC at the same time that maybe they took a little more shortcuts with like the neuro and the cardiopulm stuff? I mean, obviously they had to meet the criteria. Was there, was there less of that than maybe there would be at a more traditional DPT program because you were also pursuing that ATC congruently? Yeah. Oh man, that's a good question. I would say, uh, for us, just because of the fact that they only, they only allowed us five students to answer ends of both programs simultaneously. And so the curriculum stayed the same for the entire cohort of each, each individual, uh, class 80 and PT. And so we were still really equipped and inundated with information. Uh, robust information for every single course, whether it was like you said, neuro anatomy or, or, or whether it was pediatrics. So we still were able to, I think you get a good grasp on all the, all that education and information that we needed for the boards. Now that's not to say that I remember it all now, but, um, more so just because of the, again, the kind of domain that I'm immersed in currently. Okay. So you just basically have to do more work than everybody else to do both at the same time. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, yeah. So you talked about this kind of, this breadth of education. And now, you know, I want to get to your you're in the NBA working as a physical therapist, but prior to that, and you had mentioned when we spoke off the air that you were working in a, in a traditional outpatient clinic that, you know, wasn't the best fit for you right after you graduated PT school. And then you ended up at. We have to perform, and I want to give those folks a plug, just because, you know, as I mentioned to you, I feel like now that this is a, a real life scenario, because students are allowed more than one clinical rotation. But if a student asked me, you know, I'm only allowed one clinical rotation and I want to get into this performance based physical therapy, um, you know, what will be the best place to go? I would, I would say without any kind of hesitation, it would be a rehab to perform. And I would even pick them over our own clinic because I think that they see. You know, probably a little bit more post-ops than we see in there seeing a wider range of patients than we are. And they're also working in an in network model, which I think is very important as well, because that's kind of more, that's a more real life. And I think that you need to work in real life before you work in kind of fantasy land. So I have a ton of respect for, for Josh, for what he's built and for all the clinicians there, because you just have a ton of high quality people there. So you, you, you end up, we have to perform and you're working in this, you know, in a very robust. Outpatient sports setting. I think that they, their, their model, they're doing it as well as can possibly be done. Considering those insurance constraints. Then you end up in the NBA where you're, you're not, obviously now you're working with maybe a team of 15 people and you might not even have all 15 of those athletes assigned to you. So what would you say is like, in terms of your development, the upside and the downside of working in that more traditional outpatient PT setting, where you're getting. A ton of reps seeing maybe like a broad range of injuries becoming that generalist. And now you're really, you know, more of a specialist working with a very unique type of athlete. Um, but you're not getting a ton of reps. Do you find that, like, there are certain things that you have to do to kind of stay sharp clinically because you're not getting as many reps? Like how do you kind of reconcile that? The pros and cons of both of those settings considering where you are right now. Yeah. Um, no, it's an excellent question for, for me. Um, it's something that I think about a lot because it's, it's one of those things where I want to make sure that I don't have some of those skills, um, strict for me because of the fact that I don't have to use them on a frequent basis as much as I did when I was in an outpatient orthopedic physical therapy clinic. And so, you know, one thing I think about is, is. At an outpatient physical therapy clinic for the most part, uh, the clinician is really autonomous and that's not to say that we're not autonomous in the sports sector, but what I mean by having more autonomy is that we really are the arbiter of, of, of making sure that this individual is, you know, starting from day one. Post-op, uh, post-surgery all the way to the point of return into. Competition. So we're really traversing this entire reconditioning continuum, if you will. And so, you know, I kind of be quite, uh, maybe using an analogy to the fact that. If I'm thinking of, of, of driving on a road, on a freeway, then I have the ability to move in. And out of all these different lanes, there's no lane that is that it's not, uh, available to me to merge into. So I can. You know, put all I could drift over into the lane and being a strength and conditioning coach drift over into the lane of being a physical therapist, drifted over into the lane of Bay, all these different things that allow the athlete or the individual that has some kind of, uh, injury that they're getting back from to get back to their activities, as opposed to in the NBA. It's it's we have a little bit more of like these stringent, if you will, uh, domains and responsibilities and roles. And so, you know, from thinking of driving again on that freeway, it's like, Perhaps I can merge into that lane, but it's gonna, it's gonna close quicker. Right? And there are certain lanes that are restricted to me that I just can't get over anymore because that's not that that lane is going to be delegated for, for someone else. Right. And it might be the strength conditioning comes from the other lane might be. Uh, you know, another PT that sees these particular players. And so, um, the, the, the biggest things for me is that, you know, I had more of like this horizon or this breadth of, um, patients to be able to see, and a lot of different, not only patients, but pathologies or injuries. And so. That was, that was great because it gave me range. And I think you can draw a lot of connections and similarities and really just become a little bit more robust than this generalist. Um, so you can draw parallels with regard to, uh, just the, the manifestation of, of, of injuries if you will. And so that I think was very advantageous and really beneficial because it does lay the architecture for the foundation, uh, on which you can kind of build your skills on. But yeah. Then w when you think about the MBA, well, you kind of have that taken away inherently, just because of, as you alluded to, do you have 15 guys, um, and you, and you have three physical therapists and you have the strength, coaches and sports science. It's great because there's, uh, there's tremendous collaboration and these consultations, and you're able to, uh, you know, pick other people's brains and it have another set of lenses to be able to determine. Whether or not what you're doing is beneficial and effective. Um, but I think. It also allows to the ability to maybe refine your lens if you will, and not have to be so broad with the terrain in which you're looking. So you can become a little bit more specific and a little bit more, I guess, pragmatic, uh, about the selections that you're using, because we have almost like this, this, the resources available from like a brain capacity, a cognitive capacity perspective and outpatient physical therapy. You're saying. You know, 12, 15, 16 patients a day, it becomes very, very challenging and timely and even costly sort of really commit to education, uh, in every single entity or pathology injury. That's we're saying. Uh, and so you become really good at understanding things that are really important for sure, because you have to get some low hanging fruit really quick. Uh, but I think this particular. Uh, this particular path that I'm on right now allows me to kind of perhaps get a little bit more into like the nitty gritty, if you will, to understand a little bit more of like the nuances and, and what to make of that. Uh, and, and it's also allowed me the ability to continue to. Get a little bit better at, um, at this communication standpoint. And when I say communication, it's, it's really like having this, this great collaborative effort with every single individual so that not only can you, you speak their language, but you know, when you should speak and so, you know, whatever. Presentation you're presented with, it's understanding enough about that other person's responsibilities and their roles so that, you know, and you can discern whether or not it's, it's important for you to share and impart your information about that particular athlete as well. So you need to know enough so that you understand, uh, when the information that you have is critical to the conversation and whether or not this individual should, uh, return to play, uh, or, or potentially kind of like, uh, pull the reins back a little bit, depending on what they're presenting with. So. You know, both have had upsides and downsides. And I try to always look at the glass half full and they both have been really beneficial for me, um, in, in both a really growing, uh, process and in my overall, I guess, matriculation as a clinician, I think it's funny that you mentioned. The autonomy that people have in the outpatient setting, because I think a lot of us who kind of work on this, like performance, you know, uh, clinician hybrid type role, we romanticize like being this global load manager where we're kind of like connecting all of these disciplines, but in pro sports, like there's necessarily always going to be. These subdisciplines and in the outpatient physical therapy setting, you know, like the people that I work with, I'm not working with like generally elite athletes, like I'm their physical therapist, I'm their strength coach. I'm their track coach. If they're a track athlete. And I actually kind of enjoy being all those things, but if I was working with a world-class sprinter, Like I would have no business programming, you know, how it leads to printer was like what they were doing for their block start volume, right? Like I'm comfortable working with like a team sport athlete, even a high teams, high level team sport athlete on like, you know, running programming. But if it's like an elite track athlete, necessarily, there's only so much expertise to go around. And there's actually a lot, a lot of constraints for working in pro sports is a great job, but people I think tend to. Not like, um, talk about like some of the constraints that you all work on her and, and for some, in some ways those constraints are good because they allow, you know, the different people on the staff to utilize their expertise, but it comes at the cost of that autonomy. So it's not that one is better or worse because, you know, I'm, I'm not going to do all those something disciplines as well as, you know, having a world-class staff like you have, you have a world-class. Strength conditioning coach, world-class clinicians and world-class sport and technical coach, you know, in the outpatient PT setting. For the most part, I kind of have to wear all those hats and I enjoy it, but it's not, I'm not going. I think that the ideal actually is just to have good communication, good leadership, and then be in a situation that you're in, where you just have people that are, you know, trying to integrate these skill sets, but in a team setting, A hundred percent and the fact that everybody wants to grow and wants to understand, uh, each other's perspectives. And so that allows you to update your, uh, your beliefs, uh, and information about a particular topic so that you can refine that. And then as a consequence, you can update your, your actions and your action plans, um, so that, you know, if you ever left that particular. Domain that you now have even, even more additive information to then back up future intervention. Yeah. And I'm curious about what the transition was like going from that outpatient setting to the NBA, because you mentioned, you know, you're seeing. I like that generalist, that range of patient population range of injuries. So, you know, there's, there's the argument that like people are people and nothing is really that new, but you're also working with a very unique population of people. Um, uh, you know, a very small sub-specialty. Of of the clinical population. So did anything surprise you clinically? I mean, even having gone through that very like extensive breadth of experience in the, in the outpatient setting, or was it, were you like, were you kind of taken aback just because of the uniqueness of some of these athletes? I would, I would say that the thing that, um, may maybe not surprise me per se, and maybe some of this is predicated on what you were talking about in regards to. Oh, well, you know, we're all just humans and we all are made of the same tissues, but, you know, I think I initially failed to realize the, just the. That height plays a major role in the forces that are going to incur on the body. And so, you know, when I say that, I just think about like the, the levers are lever, arms. And, and so I think about that coinciding with the rigor of the demands from, from a basketball standpoint of, Hey, the amount of, of. Forrest enforces that they're going to be exposed to are going to be exponential. And when you layer on top of that, their mass, their height. And so it's like their momentum right there. They're forced in there. The velocity at which are moving at is going to be really high, but not only is their momentum high in this particular sport. It's the amount of, uh, accelerations and decelerations and changes of directions that are required for them to be successful and skillful they're they're not really ever hitting top end speed. So it's like, well, they get a lot of acceleration is in these decelerations, they have to change direction. So they, they, they have to impart a lot of impulse to get. So quickly decelerate and reorient and redirect that force or change that momentum. That's a high magnitude forces. Uh, but not only that, but the rate at which those magnitudes of forces are, are occurring is incredibly high. And we understand too, if we layer on top of that, like, This, this concept of stiffness and the, you know, we're trying to maybe mitigate or lessen the degree of excursion because I have to quickly change directions. So I don't want a lot of compliance because that might be counter productive or, uh, for me to, to Excel in the particular sport of basketball. So when we think about that, it's like, okay, well, they're, they're probably. That might be one of the reasons and one of the variables as to why they might have more of this proclivity to have, uh, these, these tendon oriented, um, pathologies that are in pains and, and these, uh, these anterior knee pain as well, or, uh, again, even some, some bone stress injuries as well, because all of these injuries to me, while they might be volume based where I think of volume. Similar to, it was an analogy that our Greg Lehman news, uh, in regards to like kin in regards to paying. So he looks at like, No structural changes are like kindling, and then you need an accelerant to actually have pain. So I'll look at volume as being like the Kindle, but intensity layered on that is going to be the accelerant that then transfers over to having an actual injury. And so the volume of these repeated cyclical, lows, and activities, and accelerations is going to be kind of like that foundational layer. But then we also have the intensity of that, which is going to be. The, the magnitude and the rate of those accelerations happening over a span of 82 gangs. And so it's like, well, no wonder, um, they, they have these types of presentations. And so it's just understanding that while yes, we're all just as humans. Um, they present just because of the, the, the, the actual, uh, kind of contingencies of that particular sport, but then also what they're made of it's. It's really incumbent on the person to really investigate further as to why they present like this. And then what can you do to kind of triage and titrate, uh, some of the programming so that we can lessen the degree and the manifestation of some of these pathologies. So I think for me, that was the biggest thing is just not this concept of. Uh, just loaded concept that, you know, that I think floats around a lot. Um, but I think sometimes it's like the pendulum swings too far and we have to really understand that. Well, just loading it won't be enough for this particular population and not even just this population will probably any population. I think you have to. Um, be very pragmatic and very intellectual about when you say just loaded. Well, well, what are we considering? The magnitude, the direction, the time or duration, like all those things matter in physics, definitely matter because that's going to be what imparts a particular type of, uh, forest through that, through that tissue or stress, um, through that tissue and these guys get a lot of stress through. Um, certain tissues because of the fact that, you know, for example like their, their, their anterior knee pain, they, as I mentioned earlier, they don't, they don't want to get these excursions. And so they're remaining relatively rigid and stiff to reorient their, their, um, changing direction. So there's going to be more stress or like force for you and an area at the. The patella from more joint because it's not getting into those more compliant ranges. And so maybe they perhaps need more compliance and they need less plyometrics right during the season because they're already getting that. They need the ability to absorb and to be able to allow their cause to dissipate and attenuate for. So it's like just, just reconceptualizing all of those constructs and how that fits into this whole plethora of, um, the dynamics of injury and reconditioning. Yeah. And you kind of alluded to it a little bit talking about some of these tendinopathies, but I wanted to ask you what types of injuries or conditions do you see in the NBA that maybe weren't as common in that traditional outpatient setting? Yeah, for me, most of what I see is relatively, um, common, uh, from where I am now to outpatient. I think there's a lot of parallels to that. Um, but I think the biggest thing is just understanding. You know, when I used to think about tendinopathies, I would say, okay, well, the biggest thing we have to do is make sure that we improve your, um, your ability to handle that particular volume. Cause I would typically see runners. And so it's like, okay, well, volume. Probably is going to be the instigating factor or the thing that's kind of irritating the, the tendon and making you more symptomatic. And so let's maybe reduce the volume and then gradually implement the volume back because that's what you need to be able to handle in order to complete your design and Ricard activity. Now I'll look at it as, okay. Volume is still going to be, uh, this, this variable that we definitely have to consider, and we definitely have to tie traded in and get it correct so that you can handle that. But it's also going to be. The spray go down with the, the intensity, because as I mentioned, like the mass, uh, and the force of that, they're going to be going through places and extreme amount of force and load through the tendon. So they need to be able to handle that intensity or that rate of force over a sustained duration of time over, you know, serve so many practices as well as, you know, maybe three games a week. So it, it allowed me to maybe peel back the layer and say, it's not just this one thing. I have to be a little bit more broad about how I'm approaching this and making sure that I'm looking at every, uh, potential variable that might be inciting their symptomology and then understanding, okay, well, if this is the potential emphasis, this is then what they're going to have to get back to. And it all goes back to what we mentioned earlier. Like just this collaboration with everybody involved in that particular case. Cause you don't have to have, uh, all the answers. Yeah. And I mean, this is going to be. A hard question, but you know, we all want to know what our value is and, and what it isn't like we actually do with athletes. What kinds of injuries in your setting do you think that people like us can actually influence or mitigate the risk of? And I asked because, you know, like when, when people on the outside evaluate like the effectiveness of a performance staff or a sports medicine staff, like a commonly used metric is, um, you know, games lost to injury, but if you have bad luck and like, One player, tears, an ACL, the first game of the season. Now that's like 82 games lost to injury. And like, you can leave the league based on like a totally freak thing. And even if it was non-contact, it's like, well, you know, do they step on somebody's shoe? That's technically non-contact. I mean, what do you think it is that we can actually influence for the better, even if it's like you can't back it up with objective data and it's more your intuition because. I'm actually kind of intrigued by your experience in this setting. I would say, man, uh, I like that question, you know, If I think about this, I would probably say that I'm maybe more of our contractile oriented tissue pathology. So some more of these strains are probably things that we have a little bit more leverage on, and there's a little bit more levers to maybe modify the risk of those, those tissues being exposed to too much stress and having, um, uh, pain or injury. And so, you know, especially when, when you think about the, when you think about the interventions. Implement for that particular pathology, but also the objective testing that coincides with it. So those are like, you know, when I think about trying to mitigate or reduce the susceptibility of injury, it's like, well, what, what's an intervention that has pretty good efficacy and utility, but then am I able to have any kind of objective criteria to discern whether or not my intervention was. Uh, beneficial. And so things like muscle strains. I mean, typically there's going to be, obviously when we think about those it's it's. It's it's adding a mechanical stress to create this mechanical transduction for this tissue to handle a particular amount of stress at a particular magnitude in a, in a certain direction. Um, but then it's, well, we have testing that we can do, whether it's ISO, kinetic, whether it's isometric testing. And then we can compare that, um, from, from limb to limb. To discern whether or not they have a viable amount of, uh, uh, force production that's needed for them to be successful with that sport. And so that's why I would say more of like those, um, contract hour initiatives, um, as opposed to more of the. He's he's a nerd, uh, because those typically are going to be contingent on some kind of, of trauma or some kind of very, uh, as you mentioned, maybe like these just, just freak accidents that kind of happened. And now people in hindsight, we can always use post-hoc and say, Oh, well, this is the reason why it happened. So it's, it's, it's definitely easy to do that. Um, but. Those are a little bit more challenging to, to predict everything is it's challenging to predict, but I think those, um, maybe a little bit more, more challenging to really try to reduce the susceptibility of happening, um, in the, in the future. And then probably. Even with the, the contractor, I would probably lump in with that, uh, attendant issues. Uh, if we have this very logical progression into Lowe's, whether it be again, those intensities and those volumes things that, that we, if we can manipulate those variables and make sure that we're not. Doing too much too soon. Um, having this, this, this logical progression into graded exposure, um, then than typically this, you know, this concept of physical stress theory, we shouldn't have, um, we shouldn't have put too much stress into their stress bucket. And so now they have enough reserves to be able to handle, uh, the duration and the frequency of the, of the games. Yeah. And you mentioned kind of this emphasis on like training, training muscles, and, you know, I, I talked to one of your colleagues recently about like the layout of your. Your weight room. And he mentioned that there's like a lot more machines and there were a couple of years ago. And even things that look more like bodybuilding type training, a lot of the protocols that your team utilizes look almost like bodybuilding type, you know, not that you can never like really isolate a muscle, but not as that, you don't do compound movements, but it's funny because you've, you've been very outspoken about like the importance of language. And then we, we always hear this term in our field functional. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts, you know, in the context of what is functional for your sport, because you talk about how, like, the things that are actually really trainable might be like the ability of, you know, developing quad strength too. Reduce reduce quad strains produce the potential for things like patellar. Tendinopathy is sometimes the way to develop that is not in what we would associate as being a functional movement, like a squatter Adela, or even like a, you know, a rear foot elevated split squat. But something that looks more like what a bodybuilder would do. And, you know, part of me, even like three or two or three years ago would have had a visceral reaction to it, like an athlete doing a leg extension. But now, you know, especially because, because of people like you and, and your staff members have made the case that like, this is actually, it makes total sense. So. What do we, how do we talk about something like functional and what is the role of kind of more of these like isolated bodybuilding type, um, routines in, in the NBA where you have people that are just so freakishly athletic to begin with? It's like, again, it makes sense now because I'm like, what can you, and I really do to make these feel more athletic. But if we can target a particular tissue, that might be like a weak link in the chain or something that just because of the nature of the sport takes a ton of abuse and make that like bucket bigger. So to speak, like you mentioned, maybe like a bodybuilding type protocol or exercise is more functional. So can you get kind of more into that? Because I think in some ways like your staff is at the forefront of that. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when I take a step back and I think about the word, uh, function, which, which is. Probably relatively nebulous and like ambiguous because everybody has their own subjective definition of what functional means. And I think that's why we get into like these tribal debates, um, especially on social media. Um, but I would say, you know, at the basic level, you know, functions to me is. Is an exercise or a movement or activity that will, uh, function to prepare the individual to perform the desired and required activities. And so what I think that happens is that there's this false, uh, logic in regards to thinking that that functional means dynamic correspondence or representativeness. And so people will have this tendency to say, If this particular movement or exercise, it doesn't resemble directly the activities and the demands that the individual, um, are going to be exposed to. Then it's, it's not functional. So therefore it's irrelevant. Uh, and, and sometimes what happens is, is that these, these movements that are representative, meaning that they do look like what happens in the sport. They actually might not be. That functional. And so what I mean by that is if, if for example, we have someone that's, um, returning with, uh, ACL reconstruction and we want to do some integrated compound movement. And we select to do a squat because we say, Hey, it's functional. And it's representative, it has dynamic correspondence because they have to get into a squat position on the court. Well, If they haven't regained the visual cue, the basal level constituent of their quad, uh, peak force production, nor their, uh, quad, uh, rate of, of, of torque, um, production either. Then that exercise might not be that functional. Yes, it's representative because they get into these squat kind of position, so to speak, but they, they, they could find a way to deviate because they might be averse to loading it, maybe due to, uh, subjective symptoms of discomfort and pain. Or because they just don't have the capacity to integrate the isolated tissue in a manner that emerges as something that we think is, um, sufficient from a movement standpoint. And so we can then say, well, if, if we take a step back, what would actually be more functional? What would really serve as being able to aid in the function of this organism? Being able to. Uh, meet their demands of their activity. Maybe it is a constraint, isolated activity, like a leg extension, because it allows us the ability to really accumulate load. So that specific tissue and minimize the complexity of the task. So now not only do we reduce the cognitive load on that individual, it's an organize against gravity, but we also. Make sure that they're, if it's going to be more of a challenging time to try to navigate around, uh, and be averse to loading that tissue. So we can ensure ourselves that the tissue that we're trying to expose to some stimulus to an adaptation, be it hypertrophy or strength is going to gain, uh, those, those adaptations. Uh, and so I think we've, we leave a lot on the table. You know, when we talk about things, having to look exactly and resemble, um, the, the direct sport, because then, you know, things just start to look silly and relatively surprised for this. And then it's like, well, you can't even load, you know, it might look like what they're doing in their sport, but you can't load it to a degree that's sufficient enough to warrant any kind of adaptation because there's too many degrees of freedom potentially that are available. Uh, so that's kind of what I think about in regards to, to function. And then. You know, it's like whether it's rehab or whether it's just training in general, looking at it from like this tier system of, you know, what are, what is the, the end goal and why are we choosing that modality? Cause I look at exercises as like a modality or like a utensil and there's a lot of different utensils. You can choose, you use chopsticks, you can use a knife, you can use a fork or spoon, but it's all going to be. Contingent on your capabilities. So are you competent enough to use the chopsticks or use the fork or use, you know, the knife in order to do what's necessary, which is to feed yourself in order to, to grow or, or, or provide your body with nutrition. And so the same can be said for using and looking at exercise and implements as simply. Modalities or utensil. Some of them might not be feasible for certain people based off of their ability to be competent with that particular modality. So maybe let's change it so that we can actually do what we need to do, which is to load that tissue because we think that that tissue, um, Based off of our objective criteria and testing would have you feel, it feels though that is going to be, uh, necessary, uh, stimulus training stimulus for, for them to be productive and maybe, um, try to reduce their, their likelihood of injury. Um, and so, so, you know, that's, that's kinda how I wrap my head around this whole, so functional representativeness, as well as these, these machines. Um, and the last thing I'll say too, is. Which may be a little bit more challenging to, to, to really define, but this, this word of efficient. And so I think it'd be fishing. It's like, what's the cost of doing business. Everything has a cost. It might be objectively challenging to determine the cost, but, but all in all, a lot of times these isolated or machine oriented exercises that are constrained. What would probably have a less cost on the central nervous system say as maybe something like a deadlift or a back squat, because there's going to be more things involved in order to organize again, not just physically, but also cognitively. So, um, it's, it's understanding, Hey, what's the cost of doing business? How much am I having to pay in order to achieve this stimulus? So like the stimulus fatigue ratio, and it's like, Is the tissue or is this particular parameter evolving and adapting? And then does the athletes still have enough in their reserve to do what they really need to do, which is play basketball. So if they don't have enough to do what they need to do and door the stressors and the rigors of basketball, it's probably that the cost of that exercise, um, was not worth it because they're not able to, to continue to play. And that's at the end of the day, like that's the biggest goal. Yeah, I think that's, that's a great summary and backtracking to what you said earlier about the, just load it kind of not being really a comprehensive rehab para-dime I think that that just load it sort of suggests that people are chronically under loaded, and then we just load the more it's going to make things better. And I don't think lack of loading is the problem in the NBA. Right? Well, with the schedule that, you know, your athletes have. But you mentioned the degrees of freedom and training, you know, on a machine with less constraints actually allows you to load whatever it is you want to load in a much more judicious manner, a more purposefully, like what, what tissues do you want to target? It's much easier to target a particular tissue when there aren't as many constraints. So I think that from like a tendinopathies standpoint, it makes great sense. And even now, you know, at one point the research was saying like, you only want to do ecentric and then it was like, well, If the eccentrics exacerbate your symptoms, now it's isometrics. And if we look at like, what kind of bodybuilders do, who are considered like non-functional, they are doing a range of contraction types at a range of intensities, and they're using like a lot of variety. So now you're kind of developing. If you're training a muscle, you're training the tendon. Now that tendon is being developed, like in a variety of movements where it's not constantly being overloaded in one pattern where it's being loaded, it was being loaded in a more distributed way. So, you know, we don't think of those types of protocols now as functional because that's, the Optronic has been demonized and we talk about like machines and how, you know, machines don't work your stabilizer muscles. But, um, you know, I look at the athletes that you work with and it's like the, somebody who can three 60 dunk have a problem with stabilization. Like, are we going to make, you know, that athlete, that athlete better or more skilled because they're doing a barbell squat versus a hack squat machine when they can three 60 dunk. And are we going to. Robbed them of athleticism and skill because they are working a quote unquote, fixed pattern of movement and not challenging their stabilizers. You know, I think thanks to people like you, that's challenged my thought process because it's very easy to be kind of seduced by that idea that like, Oh, we've always got to train athleticism and I'm not saying I don't, there isn't a place for compound movements. I don't do them and I wouldn't do them with your population. But the other thing to consider is. You know, what's the max contract in the NBA and like $40 million a year. You talk about like efficiency and upside downside. If I was working with somebody that made $40 million a year and I, I haven't really seen too many guys like blow their backs out hacks squatting, but I have back squatting, like that's going to enter into my mind because like athletes, if they're going to get hurt, should be getting hurt on the court or in the field of play, not in the weight room. So I don't know. I mean, like from a. A risk mitigation standpoint. Do you ever think about that? Like even you mentioned the cognitive load, like, what they're doing is so cognitively and technically sophisticated, do we need to exhaust like mental real estate to learn like a movement, but it takes more than like 30 seconds to demonstrate, right? Like, I don't know. What are your thoughts? Oh man. I'm I'm I'm right there with you. You, you know, I think a lot of it is based off of us as clinicians, practitioners, trained coaches, what have you, um, have like this, this, uh, cognitive bias of the, of the status quo bias. So it's like, Oh, well the status quo is that functional training has to be representative and it has to look like this and functional training is the thing that we have to do now. Or I took this, this course that talked about claims. That, uh, let's say a functional training is the best thing to do. So now we have this, uh, like the sunk cost fallacy. Oh, well, I spent this money on this course. So now I have to then say that functional training is the best. And so I think a lot of the things that people proclaim and that they do is really going to be predicated on, um, their, their beliefs. And those beliefs really come from who they surround themselves, who they surround themselves by and what information they're, they're being, um, disseminated. And so that then becomes the, the premise behind most of the interventions and how they see reconditioning or therapy. And so, you know, I'm with you in regards to being able to just like, take a step back and understand, like there's a spectrum, there's a time and a place. And you know, this isn't saying that, Oh, this is the only way. And this is the best way, but it's a way that might be sufficient for these particular players, but understanding through it all it's, it's like, Being less, less confident if you will, in your capacity to change someone's skill acquisition. Um, and someone's someone's movement. It's like, that's so emergent and so dependent on a multitude of different stimulus. I mean, you know, when we talk about dynamic systems theory and we have all the tasks, organism, and environment, and we forget. That I think we forget that sometimes. And then they're all like, it's just a confluence. This movement is a confluence of all those variables. And so for us, it's like, what can we actually control? What can we actually manipulate into an extent, what can we, what can we measure? Uh, and what do they potentially not have at a lower level? And then perhaps that will emerge in the, uh, dynamic systems, movement output. Uh, but say that, Oh, I have the ability to specifically train that or, or make them jump higher. It's like, well, do they really need that? Or, or is our number one goal and responsibility to make sure that they're available for the duration of, of the season? Um, you know, how, how long do they end longevity? So how long do they want their career to last? And then being able to allocate our resources to things that are a little bit more effective. And beneficial in the, in the long run is, is probably a little bit more of a effective way to approach this rehab thing. And then the last thing that I wanted to say is, is, um, you know, cause you mentioned how people will look at the research and say, the research shows this and shows that in regards to like the tendinopathy training. And everyone's like, okay, well I have to do ecentric so I have to do consequential. So I have to do isometric and the way that, you know, lately I've been. And we kind of talked about this offline too, of, of, of how a lot of times people will now look at research and be like these, um, you know, I call them like evidence pundents if you will. Uh, and so it's like, well, I think we should look at, at literature and evidence is like a flashlight and the flashlight is being used in a pitch black house that you've never been in. And so it's like, yeah, you can shine a light on some things and it can help me navigate my way, but it's going to miss some stuff. I'm still going to bump into some. So some things have to stick my hand out to fill around, to navigate myself and use my perceptions as well. And so I liken that to research and that. You know, one article isn't going to eliminate every single thing. It's not going to show you everything. You still have to use your own perceptions and your own. Um sharistics and, and, and, and then simultaneously yes, coincide the research with that, but understand that the research is just a flashlight. It's not like this, this, uh, um, this, a huge light. That's going to be shed on every single thing. And now you have the answer. Yeah. And I totally agree with you on like the. They're kind of misplaced faith in evidence, if you want to call it that. I think that sometimes it just becomes a way to like end the conversation to just say like, it's like saying, you know, like anything that has science after it. It's probably not that scientific. It's more like signaling and people would talk about evidence. It's like, let the evidence speak for itself. But, and I, so when it comes to some of that stuff, I'm totally on board and I've written a lot about the sort of like, um, you know, the limitations of that thinking that way. But we also people like you and I have to audit ourselves because what we just said, like sounds perfectly logical to us and maybe it is logical and maybe it is the right wrong way to do it. Maybe it is the right way to do things. Maybe it's not internally. If you can talk about it, if it's not proprietary, like what metrics or KPIs do you use as a staff? To actually influence your decision-making. What are the things that you actually care about changing and that, you know, that actually influenced like, all right, what I'm going to do next, if you can say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, you know, w was that even, even just looking at, uh, I like this question, cause it makes me think even more about how, you know, before I got here, I had this, I guess, misconception or this jaded thought process in that. Oh, well, you know, I've, I've read an abundance of research and literature and looked at team sports prior to even coming to team sports. I always had an interest in it and it looks like these are all the different metrics and data points that you can use. And it's so robust and there's a lot that you can collect. So I would imagine that every single team was going to be collecting all this, and they have an abundance of resources, uh, and, and the infrastructure and logistics don't really matter because everything is available. Um, but then you, you. Have to understand once you're in this domain of like, what are all the. The nuances. And what are the contextual factors that may impede you from being able to administer or collect this particular data or, uh, is that data now relevant once you really understand some of the other subtleties within the, within that sport or within individuals? So it's, it's understanding like what actually matters, not only to you, but I think there's also a level of what matters and what can you. Uh, used to have a conversation with the players and the athletes as well, because you want to make sure that it carries over and they're aware they can hopefully over time adopt different behaviors, because if what we're collecting, doesn't change behavior and output, it probably doesn't really matter. And it doesn't warn us, um, continuing to go down that route. And so. I know for me, I think about like there's, there's different domains and entities, and there's a lot of literature on again, on, on certain, uh, factors. But some of the things that I think are relatively feasible, they have decent utility, I think players and athletes, and not even just in this particular field, but in a lot, they can, they can conceptualize the rationale behind it. Would be, for example, if I'm seeing someone that has some kind of, um, uh, symptomology or pain, uh, an easy one would be like a low tolerance test. So like what's their Astrick sign. So it's like choose a, uh, some kind of movement. And I'm thinking more right now in regards to like readiness, like what is their willingness or tolerance to be able to perform that day and what is their capacity to be able to endure the, the preparation that we have in place for them, um, from a physical training stressor standpoint. So, you know, I think about what, well, what's a low tolerance test. So if somebody comes in with, um, if they're having, they've been having bouts of, uh, tendinopathy of the patella tendon, Now might say, Hey, we're going to do a decline slam board, um, single medic squat, and that's going to be a sign of their readiness. It's from a pain up. Then I can also say, okay, well it's another category. It's going to be their psychology. Um, so, and these a way to get a proxy into like how they're feeling is literally just subjective. I think people. Failed to understand like the subjective and like the, how are you and understanding their mood and their affect and developing these relationships on this report is huge. And again, this is something that. The, the literature does support in regards to, yes, there's a lot of objective things we could look at, but the subject that piece has got to be really big as well as in regards to internal readiness proxy for the individual. Um, and then we can look at, uh, what is the, the muscular, if you will readiness for that individual, you can look at isometric. Testing. Um, and that's been, been pretty beneficial, uh, for certain key tissues that we think typically undergo a lot of stress for, for our sport. Uh, and then you could also look at like their actual physiology. So, whether that be, and again, this is, these are some of these things are, are, um, different categories that you don't even have to have, like this robust, very expensive, uh, metrics or excuse me, or data and technology, but it's like physiology that peop people nowadays have all kinds of technology with orderings rings and, uh, Apple watches. So it's looking at like your HRV or how did you sleep? Um, again, those things can become extrapolated and, and they can become a self-fulfilling prophecies too. So you gotta be very smart about how you're reading into those, but again, that's just an insight into their, their physiology Omega wave as well. Um, for, for potentially some athletes and then emerging output, like what is the emergent, uh, readiness? So that's this accountable, my job and looking at their he centric deceleration rate and, um, potentially saying, you know, how long. Does it take them to develop, uh, to develop force? Uh, and so those things can, can, again, just give you this overarching, um, almost like a surrogate of, of their readiness in their acute fatigue, and then just looking at trends over time. It's hard to put all, um, Your eggs in one basket and make one decision, I think is things that you have to do over an extensive period of time. And you also, you have to pair it with the subjective and again, their, their mood and their affect and how they're coming in. I think marrying all those things together is really vital. So those are just like a few examples that I think aren't even just, um, relegated to this particular domain. Yeah, it's so interesting because I mean, even the process of deciding what data to collect requires a certain kind of expertise and value judgment. So you almost need to be data-driven to be data-driven because if you collect the wrong data, then it's going to lead you astray anyway, and you also have to answer to somebody like. I have complete autonomy where I work. Like, no one is no one is saying to me, like, how do you, you know, how do you evaluate your worth to me? It's more like, do I get referrals? And it's kind of like more of the free market decides that it's not, it's not perfect, but for what I do, that's kind of like, you know, people keep coming, I'm presumably doing a good job, but for you, I mean, you have to answer to like a GM and a head coach. And it's like, Hey, how do I know this guy's knee is getting better? And you can't just say like, well, why don't you go ask the athlete, how he feels, they're going to demand a lot more of you than that. Um, so. And, and it's hard because you're trying to, you know, reduce this very complex process of rehab, that accounts for so many variables into like, all right, well, I'm doing isometrics and doing this. You're obviously doing a lot more than that in your process. But at some point someone's going to say like, how do you really know? What are the three things, four things that you're focused on. Because the things that you're, that entire process is going to influence and provide a snapshot snapshot of something that's much more encompassing. So again, you're in a very tough situation because, um, you know, there's so many variables and you have a lot of constraints under which you have to work. And we, and data, I think has become like a huge buzzword in pro sports. I don't know if a lot of people really know what to, what to do with it, but it's expected of you. So absolutely it definitely is. And it's just, you know, I always, I always try my best to just understand, like what, what really are the controllables and what are the measurables and the things that, uh, maybe have the highest, highest utility and that I can do something about then and there, uh, it's like, Maybe like delineating again, I'm always looking at things through a lens of a physical therapist. Um, although I have experienced as a strength coach, it's like my priority, my responsibilities here are physical therapy. So it's like, what are the, these phases of rehab that are very fluid? Um, so, so what are the phases, but then are there particular exit criteria, or as you mentioned, like these KPIs that coincide with this particular phase that allow me to be justified in my decision-making for progressing this individual, um, along this continuum, some more challenging, uh, more demanding activities and not understanding like throughout this process, another great way to determine whether or not. These individuals are ready, is going to be, you know, exposing them back into this. This is something that I wish I would have done even more when I was an outpatient, um, physical therapy, but getting them back to more of the small side of games or more into like these technical sessions as well, where it's, it's, it's less complexity. Um, it's not as chaotic. It's, it's more constrained and we feed. They're uh, they're, they're, they're psycho, social psych, psychological stress resilience. Like they feel a little bit more like equipped with being able to handle those things. I think being able to cultivate that optimism is going to be beneficial and allowing them to do some of those, um, those games. Maybe replicate some of the scenarios that they'll be exposed to, but probably not as challenging and just scaling it down. That's another way, um, that anybody can, it could probably just start to, I think we could all do a better job and that it becomes, it can become a little challenging and tricky, but I do think that using that particular resource as, as an answer venture point has a lot of different, uh, benefits. Yeah, and all of my questions are selfish. This is a really selfish one because, um, you know, you you've influenced my thinking a great deal. What are you, what are you personally excited about learning now from a developmental or, you know, content standpoint and as a team, as an organization, what do you think is kind of like. What's going to take your staff to the next level in terms of your ability to mitigate injury risk. And what do you think is kind of like maybe the, you know, something that is achievable in sports medicine that we're not quite doing it, but that we're close if we kind of do the right thing, so to speak. Yeah. Um, so to answer your last question about, you know, w what we can do better, and I think we definitely have, um, and there's literature out there, but it's like, kind of what I alluded to earlier, looking at load as two different variables. Delineate it delineating it between volume and intensity and which injuries are typically associated with those. And is there any particular, uh, risk factor or cut off in regards to the amount of intensity for this particular, uh, pathology or, or a amount or duration of volume for, for this said pathology? I think the more. Data where you collect with GPS monitoring and then the sports science side of things that would probably allow us to advance it and reduce the likelihood of certain injuries. Again, understanding that we can't necessarily prevent everything, but I think there is a chance of, of trying to reduce certain injuries if we can understand maybe when they occur and to what extent, um, regarding magnitude and rate of loading frequency and things of that nature. So that's one thing. Um, for, for my personal, I guess, journey of, of just intellect and, and continuing to grow, it would probably be, you know, right now I'm, I'm just really into this process of like true, truly refining my, my skill set and ability to, to, to kind of understand what happens at a deeper level. So it's like, Right now, I'm really big into looking at, uh, these knee pathologies and knee injuries. And also sentence, but what I kind of like merge that it's like, that's, that's the middle. I think I have a good grasp on it, but it's what, what happened, happens from a mechanical biomechanical perspective. So understanding the physics of things, moment, arms, and, uh, you know, momentum and impulse, all of those things in part the forces, the magnitude of the time, the duration, those are going to change the biological tissue, but then also understanding. The cellular response to that as well. So like both of those things buttress the, the actual presentation of the technology. So if I can understand, you know, the, the cellular makeup and then the, the physics makeup of what's happening, um, I think I could have a better, and even just, just this foundation of grasp as to, okay. That's why this particular intervention process seems to be a little bit more beneficial and I can draw these commonalities. Amongst different types of, um, uh, exercises or really just interventions. Well, I think I have a grasp on the principles, but again, getting some more of like those root level, um, entities. And, and, and domains I think is where I'm kind of headed right now because that'll allow me to formulate a more coherent and pragmatic process going forward. Uh, and then, you know, I think arts, our team and Eric it is, is, is really, she's really phenomenal at, um, like this energy systems development. So like this, this bioenergetics thing is, is fascinating. Um, I'm not as, as far down in the trenches as he is, uh, right now, Um, but I think, I think there's, you know, something just understanding and pulling back the layers of regards to the metabolic capacity or fatigue resistance of, of certain tissues and their ability to, to have capacity. So can they sustain this output at a particular intensity over a duration of time for this frequency, um, of, of how many games that they have to play. Um, and so, you know, Understanding that at a, at a, again at a more cellular level, uh, allows you to probably create and construct a little bit more of these effective protocols, uh, for, for that particular tissue. Uh, so, so those are like the big things. Hopefully I answered all your questions right there. Yeah, totally. And I'm sure that after this, there's a lot of people that are going to want to learn more from you and you've put out a ton of really good educational content. Would you mind talking about where people can learn? So I know like with re rehab to perform, you're contributing with that. He's done stuff for clinical athletes. So what resources are available online for people to learn more about what you've contributed to the field? Yeah. Um, well, I try to, you know, post some things, um, relatively frequent. I'm a social media on Instagram, so it's dr. Jason Boyd. Um, yeah. And I'll try to, you know, pumps brief a little, I guess like many lectures, if you will, on these five minutes or so of me just kind of having two slides up and then talking about particular concepts, but also a lot of, a lot of different podcasts such as this. Um, but, but even a few presentations with, um, Uh, clinical athletes, uh, level up initiative, uh, the online performance by rebel performance. Um, and then. A few other kind of things that I'm really working on right now as well is, uh, with, with the science of sport. So contributing to, like, there are many course areas and I'll be giving a lecture series. That's about two hours long, that's covering, uh, tendinopathy. So to be lower extremity tendinopathy, kind of what is the science behind it and what are the current trends in regards to intervention processes? Uh, and then the last thing is just being a lecturer for RGP Academy. As you had mentioned, uh, where I used to work at outpatient physical therapy rehab. So we, you know, we, we have a course, uh, where we are really just trying to disseminate information about. What does it look like to really go from, from Flint to play? Uh, and what are some considerations not really giving people all these answers, um, cause we don't have all the answers, but it's really like giving them enough information and the principles and the platform to be able to ask better questions and seek out things that maybe are a little less wrong and, and instilling in them the confidence to really, uh, be the. The, the, the ones that are, uh, able to help athletes and people that are physically active get back to their desire to required activities. Yeah. Well, I'll definitely post links to all those resources in the notes for this episode. And, um, I appreciate your time. I mean, like I said, I've been wanting to talk to you for awhile and, um, I'm looking forward to actually looking at some of these resources for myself. So I'll have to, when I put them in the notes, I'll be one of the first people to purchase them. I appreciate that. Thanks a lot for having me on, man. It definitely means a lot as I mentioned offline somebody that I definitely looked up to. I mean, read your stuff all the time. So it's been a, it's been a pleasure, always learning from you.
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