E62 | Keep It Real Talk #11: Outputs & Strategies

Download Episode File On today's episode, Greg, Doug and Trevor #KeepItReal while talking outputs & strategies.

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Episode Transcription: Welcome to the Resilient Performance Podcast. This is Keep It Real Number 11, we're going to talk about outputs and strategies is what we're going to title this one. So. Um, this initially came about with our students over the summer, you know, somebody might be able to perform well and, and put up good numbers in whatever, you know, sport is, or performance task is in a weight room or something like that But. Uh, then when we talked about what if it looks bad or what if it's a poor technique, a strategy that might not be good long-term for health purposes or longevity for a career. Um, so we just want to dive into that a little bit. And, uh, Trevor, I think you're going to take this one and start with that. Yeah. I think, you know, going, thinking about like helping an athlete back that coming off of a, of a relatively serious injury where they like are physically unable to perform and really. Aren't even unlike the training side of things, where they're working on, you know, more of like a weight room qualities, whether it's strength, speed, power, it doesn't matter what it is like our job is to be able to get them healthy enough, to be able to kind of get into training to again, increase their output. So they have the ability to like be competitive when they get back on the field. So they have the strength that they need to have the power and the speed and kind of more of those like physical output qualities. Um, and that's why a lot of like the return of sports tests are really based upon output measures because they are objective. And it really, it kind of makes us feel warm and fuzzy when we have like a number like, Oh, okay, this number's good. Um, an example of that is like the three hop tests with like coming off of an ACL. That's like one of the biggest fraternity sport, you know, clearance tests. And just because somebody has that 80%, you know, equality between limbs or whatever it is like that doesn't necessarily mean that like, The strategy that they're using on their formerly injured limb is the right strategy for them. So they could be using a longer ground contact time. They could be using a much more hip dominant strategy to achieve that same, you know, 80% triple hop. It would just be doing something a little bit different that will probably expose them, uh, when they get back on the field. And it just makes them, makes their body, uh, absorb and, and. Absorb it and use stress in a way that's probably not the most efficient for them that I think is kind of why us as coaches and clinicians, it's like we have to have an eye for that to understand, like, what is the strategy somebody is using and is that the best strategy for them and how they move? So I think it's like when we work with an athlete, we have to understand like, what outputs do they need to be able to have, but then like what strategies are probably going to be best for them, uh, to maintain that output over time, to be able to be healthy with it. Yeah, that's good. And that's, that's where like rehab has to, you know, incorporate like integrated movements and even kind of more isolated type things, you know, the whole isolated and integrated, because a lot of the output tests, tests in rehab return to sport tend to be like, you know, a hop test, but in a hop test, like you said, I mean, you could use more of like a, a hip strategy to achieve the same output limb to limb. But if you're coming off like a knee surgery, How do you know that you can safely load load, load the knee? Maybe you're still working around the knee. That's why, like, you know, if you have the right, if you, if you sequence your program appropriately, and I, for example, like, you know, that based on having done certain like isolation, quad movements that that athletes has, has sufficient quad strength to demonstrate like a high output with a strategy that you might, you might think is more appropriate, then if you go and test them and they. They have the output that you want, but they use a strategy that you don't think is necessarily desirable. Then, you know, that it's more like a motor learning type problem than it is. Or maybe just like, kind of like a cognitive or like a, a fear-based issue than it is. Like they lack the ability to like strengthen their quad. But at least, at least having done that, like isolation type movement early in the program, you know, that like, theoretically they have the quad strength to do what you want. And now you're seeing output and maybe like a less knee dominant strategy. And so they, they should be theoretically capable of it. They're not doing it for some reason. Now it allows you to target your intervention more appropriately, but you don't need to go back to square one and develop quad strength because they presumably have it. But the hard part with all this stuff is like, and that's, that's the art of coaching. Like the multimillion dollar question in sports is let's assume that somebody isn't hurt, right. They never had any injury, injury history, but they kind of have a really high output. Let's say they, and Greg can speak to this better than the two of us. But like, let's say they throw 105 miles an hour, but. In a way that we look at it, we think maybe it's putting the more at risk for like an overhead injury or an elbow injury, but they've never gotten hurt. That's kind of where, you know, like as a coach, I mean, if you just say, okay, well, anything that's athlete does, we're going to say as good because they have a high output. Then what value do you really offer? Like, it takes some, some kind of confidence and courage to take a great athlete and say like, we're going to change the strategy, even though someone's achieving a high output or has success, but then what if you're wrong? Right. And that's the thing where like, we never. Whenever we can ever do a control experiment with an athlete where we like change something and then go back in time and don't change it and see what happens. But if you look at even a really appropriate example now is COVID imagine if in, in February, you know, we said, okay, like, we're not going to, we're going to like, shut down the borders. We're not going to have any kind of like interstate or, um, international travel until at least in like the U S everything is totally under control. And we're controlling for all the outside variables that could. Could create a pandemic within the United States, people will be like, well, we're not, I don't, I don't want to do that. That's insane. You're overreacting. And that's the equivalent of taking a great athlete with a high output and changing a strategy. You'd say, well, you're overreacting. But now with the hindsight that we have eight months later, we, we under reacted severely. We would love to have overreacted in the short-term for a few weeks to prevent this catastrophe that's ensued. But here's the problem. If we would've said like, okay, We're going to ban international travel. We're either going to like ban interstate travel for at least a couple of weeks, until we can kind of see where this thing is going to go. Because if we, if we were to have done that, there wouldn't have been any, any pandemic here. They wouldn't have been a COVID a COVID spread. It's very, we could have easily said, well, that was unnecessary. Right? So you can't do that controlled experiment, but hindsight's the only way to know if making that change would have been appropriate. Again, that's why it takes a certain kind of conviction to make a change and a really good athlete who hasn't been hurt. Someone who has been hurt, we could say, okay, well you were hurt. So we're going to change things. And that athlete in the, in the sport coaches are going to be a lot more receptive because we have that. It's easy to get buy in when you can say, Oh, well you got hurt because of the strategy when maybe they, maybe they did, maybe they got hurt for a totally different reason, but we're going to get more buy-in to change something because they got hurt. When they're not hurt again. And that's like the people that all just do a great job of talking about this. They have a certain technical model in mind with sprinting, but they also allow for some kind of individual variability. So w and that's where, like the subjective and the objective come in. What is your technical model? And like, what are you, what's the range that you think is acceptable? You, you still, like, I think if you're, if you're a discerning coach will set, like, okay, there's a certain range that I'm not comfortable with regardless of the output, but. That's again, what that range is, can vary depending on the sport and the athlete. That's the really hard part. I, you know, that's where I, I don't have to like look at somebody and say, I don't know, until I look at somebody, what I'm comfortable with, like a movement bandwidth and an output standpoint. Yeah. And your thoughts there. Yeah. I think like, you know, so much of that too is like, like you said, like having a technical model, I think too many people don't have a technical model that is that like a, they're like, don't have one for. What they want people to be able to do. And they don't necessarily have, have like the, um, the principles technical models is based off of, because you can have a technical model that is not, it's not black and white thing. It's not a fine line, whether it's good or bad, it is that continuum and that spectrum at the talking about, but. You can kind of, if, if you understand, like the principles that create that technical model, I think you have a better idea of like, understanding, like when is it getting kind of too far to one end that via maybe now there's a little bit more risk than the risk reward. Like, that's the whole thing with like, like knee valgus and all that. Like the things that were talked about before, it's like, yeah, some of it's fine, but like, Everybody knows that you don't want, that need to be like eight inches inside of the foot immediately when they're jumping and running and sprinting inside. Right. But some of it's okay, because there is this kind of gray area between it, but you know, again, you have to have that technical model, I think, first to be able to make some sort of decision from, and I think you can make better decisions when you understand like the principles that actually, uh, that you base that pedagogical model off of. Yeah. I mean, I just took so many bullet point notes on what Doug just said, because I'm thinking, like you said, Doug, I worked with a lot of baseball players and I'm thinking baseball with everything that we're talking about. Here. Um, probably because I see it so much, but, um, having that signature, you know, your own style is such a huge thing in a sport like baseball, where the skill is, um, more, I guess, chaotic or more dynamic. Um, it's more individualized. Um, compared to something like sprinting where like there's generally isn't too great of a variance. If you watch seven sprinters run down the track versus seven major league baseball, right-handed pitchers who are a similar height or similar body type, like they're probably all throwing, uh, pretty differently. Um, in terms of like style and signature, they'll probably all do similar things. Well, or like hit sort of like check points that you look for. Um, but I think that's what is sometimes like really hard for me in that. Well, I definitely, I don't have the ability, you know, like an artist coach would with a sprinter. I don't have that exact like pitching knowledge or pitching coaching capability. So I'm lucky that I have someone that I do work with closely, who I can trust, who does do that stuff. So I am now able to outsource that. So that's extremely helpful. And that's something that like as a therapist and a coach, you, you have to know when. Like, when am I not helping this person with something that they need help with? Like, I, I try and almost like bucket myself for, for the person in front of me. And it's like, is it a strength and conditioning issue? Is it a movement competency type issue where they need some sort of stretching or mobility type work with me? Uh, is it a medical issue, obviously continuing with me and then potentially referring to a physician. And then on top of that, off of what we're talking about, it's like, they also have to have proper coaching for the skill that they're doing. Um, so then going back to, you know, your example of like, yeah, maybe a guy can throw a hundred miles an hour, but if he's doing it improperly or less, I don't even know how to use the word improper because it's such a hard thing to. To, uh, I dunno, like put labels on, but let's say there's a mechanical flaws that some, that most pitching coaches would agree on and say like, that's probably not good or like a movement, you know, a rehab specialist or somebody would say like that probably isn't so good for their shoulder or their elbow, whatever it is. Like, generally speaking, like you could probably have people agree on some things that are wrong. If you look at somebody's pitching incorrectly, let's say so somebody's throwing a hundred miles an hour. Um, and they're doing that, you know, once a week for a hundred pitches, like all these guys come out of the Tampa Bay devil rays bullpen right now, or are free. They're all like these young 20 something year old kids throwing a hundred. It's unbelievable to watch. But, um, yeah, I mean, it makes me think because of my bias as a rehab professional is like, where's that going to lead down the road? And I think it's something too in like the culture of baseball. With like, to get to the show and to get, have a seat at the table, you kind of have to do some things that might not be the best for you. No matter how you do it. We're also like pretty privileged to be talking about this stuff because maybe half of a roster is from the Dominican Republic where they need to do whatever the hell they can to provide for their family. And like, they don't give a shit what we're talking about with the shoulder and the elbow. It's like, I'm going to throw the thing as hard as I can because I need to perform. To get to the level, to even have a conversation with someone like us, because they don't have those sorts of resources. So there's a lot of different things that play here. Um, and then, uh, going back to also like, yeah, maybe you can throw a hundred miles an hour, but when you're on my table and yeah, you can't hold yourself in, Quadramed like, that's a huge issue to me. Like that's a, that's a. A huge problem. Like you were talking about Doug with like an isolation, you should be able to do some things. So if you can't hold yourself self and quadrat pad, and you don't have the ability to keep your sh your shoulder blazer scaps up against the posterior aspect of your rib cage for longer than 15 seconds, and you can throw a hundred or. Bench press four or five, like whatever it is, that's probably an issue for your health and download. Maybe, maybe you can get away with it for a while and you probably can, but there comes a point. When are we, are we not covering all of our bases? Are we not crossing all our T's and dotting our I's and just telling somebody like, yeah, your output is great. So like, I don't want to touch you and I don't want to mess you up. And that's a whole nother conversation. I don't know. I feel like we have this every, so many months, but it's like, I feel like it's, you know, the whole do no harm. I feel like it's, it's harmful to not intervene at some level. And yeah, like I'm not a pitching coach, so yeah, you throw a hundred and you have something wrong with you, something wrong. Quote unquote, with dermatology. And you can't hold yourself in quadrant, but I'm not going to tell you about your mechanics. I'm going to get you to hold yourself in quadrant bed and then get somebody else to help me do, do the other stuff who can, who can relate to you and coach you the way you need to be. What are we going to say, Trevor? You know, we always talk about like, in, in our course and stuff, it's like, we got to make people like humans before they're athletes, you know, especially like such a specific out of it's like one of the things that we do cause that's what kind of gives somebody bandwidth and give somebody variability. Like we always kind of talk about, and it's like, If somebody's choosing the strategy because that's the only strategy available to them, or is that just like the, the strategy that they kind of choose to use? It's like, Doug's example, it's like the, like, you know, are using, have done Dunham strategy because you cannot use your quad or using hip diamond strategy because like, that's the best thing available to you at this kind of point in time. So I think like, you know, again, cause we do have the luxury of like getting people on a table and look at them in so many different. So many different lenses, whether it is like from more of like the rehab center setting, where they're like, pass them on a table, we're looking at their joint range of motion, or whether we're looking at more of like, you know, static, isometric type of activities, where it is looking at control different joints to then getting them up and doing faster high-speed high velocity activities. It's like, can we can, can somebody kind of, um, do they have like the requisites that they need to be able to do the high intensity activity with a different strategy? Like if you don't have Dorsey flection, Passively it's like, well, then I know that it's going to show up when we do, you know, different change of direction stuff and you can't like lo drank loads and quad. So I think it's like being able to kind of decipher, um, like, you know, like just kind of show up home. It's like, we're just kind of detective trying to figure out, like, what, why is this person doing what they're doing? And do they have the tools necessary to be able to possibly do it a different way? Just because they have other options. It doesn't mean that they have to use those options. I think it's. Kind of on us to make sure that they have the ability to do them. If they need to like, like, you know, like vertical jumping it's like people should be able to like, kind of have an ankle, knee dominant strategy and they should be able to have a hip dominant strategy. It just depends on like the timing of the jump and kind of like the constraints around like the task specifically. It's not just like jumping overall. Like you always have to jump a certain way. Um, but if like you can't use an ankle dominant strategy to really go vertical and be quick, if you have zero function, like. And to speak to that. I've been having this pitching coach that I've been working with and sending people to, he's not sending people back to me because he's having kids that I haven't worked with yet, come in. And it's like, and like, that's all they have on the table for external rotation. It's like, you can't throw effectively health. You can't throw. For a long period of time with that range of motion, that's just not going to go well, eventually something's going to catch up to you. So he might send somebody to me to address that thing. And it's the exact opposite with him where like, once I have that guy who is in the bill has the ability to do everything he needs to do on a table and can move dynamically on the floor, standing, whatever he needs to be able to do. Um, then it's like, I can't help you anymore. And I'm going to be here to help manage your other parts, you know, whatever other things you can do. And, um, and then like you need to work with their pitching coach to really get better. Yeah. And actually, I just recorded a podcast with Jared Boyd from the Grizzlies, and we had a similar conversation and kind of talking about this idea. I think a lot of what drives this conversation is the idea of like, Transfer and dynamic correspondence. And I think people are so obsessed with transfer and dynamic correspondence. And when they talk about output, it's like, We, uh, you know, there's, we, we want to be like important and it'd be like, influence what the athlete does. So that's so perfect. That's that, that, like, we want to be important thing is so perfect. But the thing is what, what can we like really? What can people like us really influence? I don't know how much, like we're not skill coaches. And even, even if we were like, I don't know how much, if you like an elite athlete, how much you're going to change, what their output looks like and like change the quote unquote skill. Or the, the, the movement pattern that they use, but what you can do is give them like the raw materials so that like, whatever, whatever skill that they're performing and whatever output you observe, they have options. And that like that, whatever emerges from that is takes into account those options. So we talk about like the hip strategy, you know, with like the person changing the direction. If they have the quad strength that we would consider sufficient, whatever, you're kind of like. Metric or KPI is for quad strength and they use a hip dominant strategy. Well, maybe then it's not that bad, but at least like at least they had a choice. And from that, the hip dominant strategy is still emerged. So like, Greg, you talked about like the baseball player. If you don't have lay back, if you don't have external rotation available to you, then your output, whatever, like, you know, idiosyncratic movement signature that you utilize is necessarily going to be impacted by your, your lack of options. So I think that where we can be the most effective is by giving people. Movement options. Maybe not in a way that has complete dynamic correspondence, but the good athletes will figure that out. Like if you give, instead of saying like, okay, like we don't like the way that you throw let's figure out like, okay, what, what, what sort of joint motions are required to throw properly throughout the kinetic chain? And we can start from the foot and go all the way up to the shoulder, to the wrist. And if anything is like really, really lacking and we're like, wow, like this is like just super, super glaring and deficient. Let's restore that in a way that doesn't, isn't going to screw with their skill so much, but now they have that motion available to them. And if their, if their strategy stays the same, maybe we shouldn't change it. But if it changes now, maybe if it changes because the athlete subconsciously it's like, wow, like I have this thing available to me now I'm going to use it. So maybe we just, the fear is that we're going to like, take these really good performers that have high outputs and make them worse. So maybe the strategy is not to like, Mess with the whole pattern, which kind of, um, violates the idea of like trying to, you know, have this dynamic dynamic correspondence and transfer. Maybe it's like, let's be a little bit more myopic. Look at like individual joint motions and try to change those things. And that's what we can actually effect versus like trying to change a skill, which is a lot harder on like a macro level. Like maybe we get more micro and let the athlete figure it out. And then if the athlete changes the strategy, we didn't like screw them up because the athlete made the choice and it wasn't like. Imposed on them by somebody that's trying to be important. You know, that's what, like the important thing is to cause them. I'm sure you guys have had it too. Who likes some of the, um, prepare work with, if I have in mind that this is like, he went to a, like a basketball training facility with some PTs there under the part of the country and came back and was like, gave me like his assessment. And it's like, it told me that like, I'm limited to this and I'm limited ass. And I suck at that. I'm not going to best. And I'm like, it's like, no, dude, like I'm not gonna lie. It they're they're wrong. It's like, it told me my hip mobility is limited and it's like, you have 45 degrees of VR. You have 25 degrees of IRR. You have plenty of hip extension. You got full hip fluxion. You don't have a hip impingement, nothing pinches. It's like, your hips are fine, but my thoracic spine is limited. It's like, you can rotate, you can do everything. So I think there is like, You know that idea of like, we do try to almost make a mountain out of molehill with something very small, like that it's like, they don't need to be like completely perfect, but you got to have adequate ranges of motion to be able to do, to execute things just in a, in a decent manner. Like I said, like even like, I think those things like distraction can show up when you watch athletes mode, like you, I don't think anyone has ever seen like a really good athlete who like looks smooth and looks fluid and looks like they're, they're just kind of in complete control and like, Like, Oh, that's a really bad strategy. Like that just doesn't exist. Like they move so well, those things aren't going to change, but it's like, you know, it's the athletes that like, maybe they look like they have trouble getting in a position. And I think like athletes themselves, when you ask them those questions like Bay, no, it's again, I have a hard time, like going this way or, or, or. Doing this specific action that need to be able to do on the court. So I think it's like asking people, those questions can kind of drive our assessment and drive our intervention to help give them the appropriate things that they need to be able to do what they want to be able to do a little bit more effectively. Yeah. And then I like, go ahead. I was going to say, I like how you, you mentioned like, sometimes we might need a more myopic focus and think about things like, all right, is this joint, is this muffled group like. Can we get this thing to be as robust as we can, like you said, so there could be the option to have a neat almond strategy versus a hip dominant. But though, if you don't use it, that's fine. And I feel like sometimes, I don't know. I see a lot where like, people are moving so far in the opposite direction where it's like, everything is about global patterns and loading global patterns and like loading the skill itself. Yeah, I know we've, we've posted things and spoken about like training things that are as close to the skill as possible, but that doesn't, we're not talking about then like loading the mechanics of a delivery from it for a pitcher. Um, but yeah, so I like that thought about, maybe we knew we do need to sort of reign it in and figure out like, okay, We aren't really all that important when it comes to global patterns and we need to just focus on like, let's get this joint, let's get this muscle group to be as bad-ass as we possibly can, because ultimately like, if, if you're weak in a joint because you haven't worked on it and you've just worked on like these global things that may or may not transfer like that weakness that you didn't develop and create robustness with is going to become a problem down the road. Yeah. And Trevor talked about like a lot of athletes know, like, I'm sure Greg you've worked with pitchers where you could say like, okay, where do you miss? It's like, Oh, I can't like, I can never pitch outside. And it's like, well, they have no hip internal rotation on their, their lead leg. Right. Like I remember when I played tennis competitively, because my internal rotation on my left side sucked, I had a hard time serving out wide. So. You know, you, you could tell me, like, you could say, you could cue me, like, Hey, get your, whatever it is, like slice the ball more, toss it more outside. Like if I can't get into that lead hip, it doesn't matter. It's not like a motor learning issue per se. Like I don't have the requisite, you know, fundamental movements to be able to do that task in a global way. You're thinking pretty highly of my athletes that I'm working with the pro guys tend to no, no, I agree. The higher level guys won't be able to come and say like, I've realized that I need to change my foot position on a certain pitch to hit a certain location in the strike zone. I've heard that from people before, but yeah, those are definitely not the majority of the kids I'm working with. Um, you know, oftentimes, and I know I was the same way when I was there. It was like, oftentimes it's just like, I can't throw a damn strike period, so it doesn't really matter. But yeah, no, I totally agree where, and then, you know, some of the kids who. And I don't even want to say kids, but like, you know, these athletes, as they get a little bit older, they probably a little bit longer and they start to hear and, and like, see what other people are doing either at the gym or at a pitching coach where there's a bunch of other, other athletes around, like, they almost just need it. Sort of be shown that like, or be told that somebody else has something that they can feel. And then it's like, Oh, that's what this thing is. It's like, they don't even realize until they're being told by somebody else that there is this thing within them, that they can sense and feel that they can't hit the outside corner. Like you said. So, um, yeah. That's enough of that. Yeah. It's not, I mean, sometimes like work it's tricky. You can have somebody that looks just fluent. Mover looks looks exquisite, but then like, what if, what if they're always hurt? Like they, they look the part, right. But let's say it's like somebody that when they jump, you're just like, wow, this is, this is poetry and motion, but then they've got like chronic pathetic tendinopathy. Is it, is it because they're not like their, their output strategy is flawed or maybe it's just because they don't have the low tolerance capability, like in their quads and maybe like, just getting more quad strength. And for that athlete, maybe just doing like some. Like extensions using a variety of loading patterns, whether it's like, you know, uh, isometric concentric, East centric, a variety of rep ranges to kind of condition that tendon, maybe for them like that is, that is actually the best way to kind of improve their skill and not mess with what their output looks like. But then you can have someone, you know, who you would consider like a very idiot idiosyncratic mover, but like if they're never hurt, um, and they still, they have a high output. And they, they, you know, if you really break down your technical model and they still adhere to it, but they've got like a little bit of like a hitch somewhere or like idiosyncrasy, then, then you don't like, why, why change it? So sometimes people who look good, they do require an intervention, but it's not because necessarily like the strategy has to change because like maybe they need to build up their currency in the raw materials, whether it's like, maybe it maybe it's fatigue, resistance, maybe like they have, you know, when you test them in a. Um, in a less fatigue state, they look the way you want them to look. But then when you, when they're fatigued, that that pattern changes. So it's not so much like the strategy per se is like, they can't resist fatigue very well. So sometimes like doing something that looks nothing like the sport could be the answer to making that output look better. If you think that even the way that the output looks is the problem, but it's not always, it's not always about looks like that's why there's just, there's so many variables, but I think that you have to have a technical model. The technical model should account for like a range of acceptable, because not everything is good. Like some strategies are better than others, even though a lot of strategies can work and you've got to figure out like, you know, account for all these variables and figure out when you need to intervene, because people can overly intervene, which is bad. Like now you're tinkering with something that's not broken, but it's also like, why are you a coach? If anytime you see something that's cool, that looks good. You would never even like investigate deeper and try to find more solutions. So. Yeah. And I know you had mentioned to us before we started recording about how you just, you just recorded with dr. Jared boy from the Grizzlies is like you said, and how you kind of dive, you know, dove into some stuff within that's like, may otherwise be seemed as like meathead ish, right. Where you're, you're doing some things that are like isolating joints and, and just kind of moving some weight around and where like maybe two years ago we might've been like, Oh, Whoa, what is that? Like, that's not. Athletic performance training, you know what I mean? Um, and I'm now like in my head going back to things like between with like battle ropes for my pitchers and like, why wouldn't I do things like that, where I care more about the forces that are going on and, and like the dynamic action that's going on. If it's like a plyo or ballistic or ecentric concentrate, like I care more about the forces and those types of things, then what the actual drill is. And to me, it's also like, let's keep it real right. If you're just going to do band-aid. Shoulder internal rotation at any angle. Like you can't tell me that the forces going on there are going to be better than if I'm doing a battle rope and shaking something fast for 10 seconds or whatever it is. Um, so that's why I'm, I'm sort of toying with things that I otherwise would have been like, what the hell is this person doing with their baseball players? That's not a baseball thing. It's just like not culturally accepted at this point. And, um, So that's been pretty fun and I want to do a lot more stuff with people's hands on the ground. Um, but yeah, I think it's like, like I said, just looking at what are the forces going on and what's the goal. And it's always going back to like, what's the, what are the forces that are happening? I think we're going to see a resurgence of bodybuilding style training in sports, especially. Among people who are, because, you know, like some of these guys who have like 40 inch for the guys just going to dunk contest that I have like 40 inch vertical leaps and can do three sixties and jump over cars like should, should, should, what should our training or our work with them be devoted to like making them more athletic, like how much more athletic are we going to make them or making them just available to play. Right. So, and then also like the, the sport, and this is the point Jared made like. There's sports has such a high cognitive demand because of like the tactics and the strategy involved. Like why would we do things in the weight room that have a high, not that like they're overwhelmed necessarily, but like, why would you spend something that takes more than like a minute to demonstrate with an athlete who like is playing a game it's very technically complex anyway, because that's where like, that's what they should be focused on. So, you know, I think how you would train like a developmental, like a high school athlete who maybe isn't that gifted. Like we, if we talk about like, even Jared brought up like efficiency, like what does efficiency really mean? He kind of defined that as like this sort of risk reward type thing. If you have somebody that like, without really aggressive, so to speak training would never like, you know, qualify to play college sports. You're going to train them differently than like somebody who is a 40 inch vertical leap and is making like $20 million a year in the NBA. Like you can't, we can't pretend that like those, those stakes and like what's at stake. If we screw up. It isn't going to influence our training. So there's much more downside to doing the wrong thing with that, like NBA $20 million athlete, who can already three 60 dunk over a car. Like again, if we add like an inch of their vertical leap, are you really going to notice that versus like, if we hurt them in training, we're definitely going to notice that. So I think for like the really high skill people, like they have something that we can't teach them. We need them to be available. And so that's why I think that like, just some of like isolating muscles, so to speak and just. Like trying to load where we want to load and, and kind of develop this, this low tolerance. These athletes can demonstrate the skill they already have on the court. I think that like, for some of these really highly skilled athletes, the further away from dynamic correspondence, we can go sometimes the better. And I think that like, you're going to see forward thinking teams doing more like bodybuilding type training, and you're going to see wait rooms now, like have more machines because we talked about with Gerald, like the whole just loaded thing, which I think is kind of like a. You know, it's not a comprehensive type of strategy. You're saying like, okay, just load it. Like, what are you trying to load? And when you, when you have these complex global movement patterns, it's very hard with all those degrees of freedom to, to, to control the load for where you want it Raz with like more bodybuilding type single joint training. Now, like now you're like, okay, like here's what I actually want to load. And you can be much more strategic about what you're loading. And, and that to me is that that to me is like, makes more sense. And it's a more comprehensive strategy than saying like, just low anything, because like, especially at the pro level in the elite level, just load, it sort of suggests that these athletes are under loaded. I don't think it like somebody in the NBA who has a chronic tendinopathy is under loaded. Like they're probably overloaded. So now, like where do you want to concentrate the load in training to make them more, more robust? And that's where I think, like having simplified single joint type training can be very, very effective. So. Well, I think we're going to see more of that actually. And to me, like, again, we talked about two or three years ago. We probably would have dismissed that as like, it's not, it's not functional. Right. But now I think it makes like a ton of sense. I think we're going to see more of it. I mean, I think that idea right there is exactly what you said a couple of weeks ago about like, you know, I was like with like the question about like pushups, it's like, you gotta like move the flooring and move the ceiling. You have to create bandwidth. And I think when you. Especially like super high level athletes. We're talking about like pro like the pro basketball players that this example is where they're doing. If their sport is so explosive and so fast and so demanding. And it's like kind of one end of the continuum of like certain qualities, it's like to give them bandwidth, you have to change it up. Like. It's like, they're not talking about doing more plyometrics to cure that that's an anomaly. It's like they're getting enough jumps and enough high intensity accelerations and decelerations and change of directions in their sport that you have to give them something else. On the other side of the continuum, which is like that low load, long duration, you know, type of ice and veterans or EastEnders or whatever it is just kind of getting that time under tension. That's going to put stress in the places that we want. Yeah. And you have to look at the individual needs of each sport too. So I've got a little caravan going by here, real time podcasting in New York city. Um, you know, like I would imagine that the strength norms in the NBA are much different than they are on the NFL. Right. So Rob Pinarello remember, we went to that, um, that course within a few years ago, like he talked about like, okay, at the division three level in football division two and division one, like here's. Fire truck owned by here's the average of what people can do. So he's not even saying like, you know, you have to be exceptional, but like if you're rehabbing somebody, you have to get them back from an output standpoint. Like the baseline level of like what people can typically do in that sport. Because if you can't like, you know, if you're an NFL, like, um, linebacker, right. And if the average back squat for those, that position is like, let's say like 500 pounds. If you have like a 300 pound squat, you better be like exceptionally skilled. Right. So having a high output allows you to actually be less skilled, but you want to have both, right? Because, and then being less skilled allows you to have like a lower output. So, but the part that we can actually control, I think is really more of the, more of the output. So as long as we're developing output and which we're actually not trying to make it too specific and too dynamically correspondent and screwing with what they do from like a, a technical standpoint, then they have the output. Now they can choose to use it or not. Um, yeah, but I think that's why, like, I, I like Greg's example, but like, like the pigeon thing, it's like, just because we were trying to get things like, you know, to quote unquote transfer it's like, that doesn't mean that we're like loading sports specific patterns. Like you're not like loading somebody jump shot with a 20 pound medicine ball. You're not loading, you're not loading. Somebody's throwing with a five pound weight of the ball. It's like, that's, that's where I think it's like, things get taken too far versus what Greg had mentioned reports like, no, we're trying to like. Give people, the appropriate forces for whatever their needs are, are an exempt, like by like the population and the age and the sport, all those factors kind of come into play in terms of like, are they to come into play? If we understand how those things interact to give her, give the athlete in front of us, like one of the best interventions kind of, for them that helped meet their needs. Awesome. I think we kinda took that on a nice little tangent there and beat that up a little bit. So, uh, we'll end it here and then we'll take some questions. Did you have something done? Well, I was gonna say that would be kind of like, didn't really answer. We just, because it's really, it's a hard thing to answer, but hopefully there's something in there that's usable. Thanks for listening. And we look forward to seeing you next week.

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