E58 | Keep It Real Talk #7: Increasing Endurance & Performance PT Con-Ed

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On today's episode, Greg, Doug and Trevor #KeepItReal while talking increasing endurance & performance PT con-ed. Links of interest:

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Episode Transcription: I want to ask for your interest. We'd like to open up, keep it real episodes up to you, the listener, and have discussions on topics driven by the content of this podcast and our social media. If you're interested, we'd love to hear. So by dropping us a message on our Instagram, our handle is resilientppt. R E S I L I E N T P P T. Thanks. All right. Welcome to episode seven of the Keep It Real Talk on the Resilient  Performance Podcast. I'm your host, Trevor Rappa. I'm here with my brilliant and handsome partners, Greg Spatz, and Doug Kechijian. Uh, the first question that we're going to go over today is methodology for quickly increasing calisthenic numbers, such as pushups or pull-ups. And Doug is going to start with this one. Yeah. So I'd answer this very similar to you. If you said, how do I improve my. 400 meter run time with any kind of conditioning or, you know, an activity where you need to do a bunch of reps and you might even call it like endurance based. You want to support that activity from both ends of the intensity spectrum. So with low intensity work with high intensity work and then kind of specific work. So like if you're trained for, you know, a 400, right, like you need to have top end speed. Um, so like at the elite level, if you're not running close to like a sub 1,000, like you're not going to metal on the Olympics in the 400. So you've got to work on that, the higher intensity end of that spectrum. And then they would do more specific endurance work for the 400. There's some, you know, a debate as to like how far you have to run in training. Some coaches might not run more than 200 meters, you know, some might do repeat for hundreds and even maybe. Five or six hundreds, you know, to go a little bit beyond the demands of the event. But then if we get into like, let's say like a five K you know, five K runners are doing anything from. 400 or 800 meter repeats to build quote unquote speed because that's speed work for that event. They don't need to be doing the same type of speed work as a 400 meter runner or a sprinter. And then for their lower intensity work, they might go for like 10 mile runs. 15 mile runs do much lower end aerobic work. So if you're saying like, I want to build up my pushups, lower intensity work in that context would be like, Okay. You're doing a workout where you're trying to just accumulate a lot of volume of pushups without a ton of fatigue. So if your max and say like, you know, 90 pushups, you might do just a bunch of sets of 30, where you're accumulating a couple of hundred reps in a session, you could do things like ladders, where, you know, you do like three, six, nine, 12 up to a certain number where you feel like fatigue starting to kick in, but it's not the tier rating. Your form. And then start the ladder from scratch. The goal is again, to build up a lot of volume without a lot of fatigue, it's kind of the running equivalent doing, you know, going for a slow 10 mile run at a conversational pace. That's going to be. Build you, you know, build specific, uh, kind of build, build out motor pattern, develop a general, general base to do the higher intensity work. And the higher intensity work for a pushup test would be okay if you can do 90. Now, you want to do sets where you're, you're re you know, going near failure. Um, so it could be something like, let's say, you know, your goal is to do 90 pushups, but you can only do 70. So you would, you would go for broke, you know, do 70 pushups. Maybe rest the same amount of time that it would take you to do those 70 pushups go to failure again. So you get 10 rest, however long it took you to do those 10 pushups and then keep going until you get to 90. And the idea would be to eventually get to the point where you don't need to, you can do 90 at one, you're not stopping and starting, you know, um, that kind of thing. So again, it comes down to just supporting those two ends of the spectrum. Hiring intensity of work in the context of a pushup test is. Going near failure. You're not going to be able to accumulate the same amount of volume. So in that case, you know, quality of work or intensity is the training stimulus and intensity in this case is, you know, your, your output relative to what you're capable of from a, from a repetition standpoint. And then, you know, with lower intensity work or more volume based work. Where you're accumulating a much higher workload. And as with most endurance activities, we spend, you know, the majority of it doing it, lower intensity, more volume based work that isn't as stressful. And it's hard to recover from. And then maybe like, you know, twice a week, if you're doing it, if you're training five days a week, then do more of that. The intensity based work where you're going towards failure. And then over time, you're hoping that those two ends of the spectrum converge is that you're increasing your maximum repetition output and say like a two minute pushup test. Is your answer to that Doug change? Cause that was very, that was a great answer is obviously kind of geared towards people going into more of a selection, like pushup test situation. If you have kind of a normal gen pop client who just overall wants to get better at pushups and pullups does your, is your answer for that change? Cause that's like something I I've had tons of people it's like, I can only do 10 pushups right now. What's a good way to be able to do more pushups or I can only do a couple of chin-ups right now. What's a good way to kind of get better at that because your answer changed for that at all. That's a really good question. I mean, for. For ch you know, for chin-ups like, if someone's like really good at chin-ups, they're probably going to do like 20, which isn't a crazy amount. I mean, some of these pushup tests, you're seeing people trying to get like a hundred and you know how I would train them for a selection course. It's not how I train somebody if they were just trying to prepare for their job or for general fitness. Like, I don't think that most people, even the ones, like at one point in my life, I went through that selection course I could get do whatever eight to a hundred pushups at once. But my form was not up to the same technical standard is what I do now. Yeah. So I don't think most people must, they're like an elite gymnast can really do a hundred good pushups, you know, you're, you're really just you're you're, you're trying to pass the test and their threshold for what constitutes a good rep is different than maybe our threshold for what constitutes a good rep. And like a therapeutic or a training environment. So if somebody said like, you know, that wasn't training for a selection, course, I want to do more pushups. I first be like, well, look for what purpose. I mean, my, my, for a general population client, I want them to do pushups well first, and unless they really had a specific goal that was, that require them to do a lot of pushups. I probably wouldn't have them do more 15 reps in a set. So for most people. No most people that we work with initially, like probably can't even do a pushup the floor based on our technical standard, you know, where we're having like the elbows talk, the shoulders over the hands. We're not looking, you know, we're not tolerating a lot of like trunk movement or like the hips dropping, like to do a pushup with that, to that standard. Most people can't do that day. One for more than a couple of reps. So we'll elevate their hands on like a bench or some kind of a surface. If someone can do 15 reps. Then I'll lower their hands so that we can get them on the floor. And then once someone can do that, let's say 15 reps on the floor. We might have them go on gymnastics rings or TRX, or do a Spiderman or elevate their feet. Like most people that we work with, we want doing strength work and not strengthened Durance for work, because for most people, like why would you do strength, endurance work? It's not specific to your tasks in the military selection course, doing a lot of pushups is specific because you're testing on it. But for most people, like I'm trying to find a variation where they can do. 15 reps or less, because I want it to be a strength stimulus. And unless they have a compelling reason to do a ton of reps, you know, cause you've got to be really skilled to do a lot of quality reps. And most people that were working with Kenyon really do, you know, 15 reps or less at a very high technical standard. So I try to, I try to make pushups and pullups more of a strength based activity than like something where you're just trying to chase a ton of reps, unless there's a really good reason. Have you, I know, I think you've recommended James Smith's military selection book to people in the past. Right. Is there anything she recommends in there that you already haven't touched on? Or is there, you know, what did you like about it or doing from an endurance end? You know, he's doing, when it comes to running like a bud, like low intensity running is the bulk of the training and that like, there's a reason why most elite endurance athletes like are running, you know, Any 200 miles or even more, sometimes a week, like less, unless you have a really good reason. You want to be the exception to the rule. Now you don't need to run 80 miles a week to do well in a military selection course. But I would say even for like, you know, uh, 5k to improve that, which is kind of like a five mile run or even it's like a 10 K that's what you're going to be tested on in the selection course. I think the bulk of the training could still be like on the lower intensity end of the spectrum. And then one or two, two days a week, you're doing. Like relatively speaking speed work, where you're doing, you know, you're running at a faster pace than what your goal is for your specific event, but you're, you're, you're accumulating a much lower volume. So, you know, in James, his book, he's doing, you know, a mix of interval training and like long, slower distance work for more, you know, like kind of like threshold training versus. Um, you know, more like purely aerobically based work. And then for the calisthenics, it's the same thing. Like the book of the, the work workouts that he's doing for calisthenics, you're accumulating a lot of volume, which is equivalent to doing like a slower, lower intensity run. But then he's also mixing in kind of more of the realm. Again, relatively speaking, higher intensity work, where you're going more towards failure, you've got to support both ends of it. Like if all you ever do is, you know, if your goal is to do, let's say, um, 90 pushups, but all you ever do is max out with 40 reps in a set. It's the equivalent of like, if you want to run, let's say five, seven minute miles or 35 minutes. Smile. If all you ever do is run, you know, five or more miles at a nine minute pace, you're never actually running at the pace you want. You want your goal to be at or at a faster pace. So how do you expect? Imagine they get faster. You need to attack conditioning from both ends of the spectrum, lower intensity and the higher intensity. So. I think James does a great job for that, which is why for people who are like, look like, I just want like a blanket program for special operations, they don't, they don't want to do like a, a personal last assessment. I'll be like, you know, James, his book, I think does a great job of like, if you just want to be told what to do and not get too specific and personalized, I think that. His resource is a great one. Is he doing like calisthenics? Like the sit ups, pull ups, pushups, like, is he doing that stuff? Is that every day? Is it it's, it's almost, it's almost every day. I mean, there might be some days where he's not doing it, but it's probably at least like four days a week. Interestingly enough, in James, his book, he doesn't recommend doing a ton of sit-ups. Um, and I can't take the same approach, like, unless you're really, really bad at them. I would, my, my thing with most selection candidates is. I want them to be able to pass the sit up test, but, you know, because of all the other work that they're doing for the trunk, you know, from like a load management standpoint and like, like a, a backout standpoint, how people would say, Oh, like, sit ups, aren't bad for your back. And like, I kind of get that, but if you're also doing a ton of running and a ton of rucking and a ton of like strength training, like I don't think that sit-ups offer a ton of. I think some people are out to prove that exercises aren't dangerous, which like, yeah, you could say setups aren't that dangerous, but I don't think they offer a ton of benefits. So if I'm working with a candidate that I know is going to pass the sit up test pretty easily, I don't have them to do a ton of setups because I don't think that it's justified from a, a risk reward standpoint. But like if I test somebody and they're like 20, you know, 20 reps away from what the minimum standard is, I might have them do more, but. Like James and his book is not advocating doing, doing a ton of specific setup work. And I would take the same, well, that's probably the easiest part of the test, right? For most people, like most people aren't failing the test because of the setups. Right. Usually pushups or pull ups from a calisthenic standpoint. So I would focus more on those things unless somebody has a really, really good glaring weakness in, in sips, again, from like a risk reward standpoint. I'm not saying that it's like dangerous per se, but I don't think that it offers a ton of value or benefit either. So I don't, I don't like doing things just to do them. And to me, it's about category. Right. And what about like actual, like weight, weight, training, resistance training stuff? Like how much, how much of that does he have in there and in his fuck. If I remember correctly, not at all or towards like just passing selection. I mean, If I was preparing somebody for selection, I might have them, depending on the phase of training, do one to two days a week of strength work. But I think that even though you're not tested on it, it does have kind of a, a therapeutic and I don't want it like, kind of like an injury, risk, mitigation, um, value, you know, I think what you're talking about with doing like supporting both them. Yes. I see it as like, If you're trying to develop like a robust trunk for doing a lot of rucking and you know, your spine is only used to, let's say like 80 pounds of external load, you know, like learning how to deadlift, double your body weight in a good position, I think can help. You know, it's just like, Oh, the floor build the ceiling. I think that some strength work does, does create more of a platform to do strength, endurance work. So, um, Especially when it comes to like leg strength and like trunk strength. I think there is a place for doing like, you know, loaded single leg work. Um, even like some deadlift variations and some carries, like, I think that does have a place in a selection program, but I wouldn't do it more than twice a week. And as I got closer to selection, I'm only doing it once a week because there's only so much you can take away from and the more strength work and doing that you're necessarily doing less running. Less calisthenics. You can only adapt to so much training, but, um, that doesn't mean I'll be cool James approach because the goal is to pass. And I think that James would say, you know, we've had him on our podcast. Like he would train a qualified operator different than, than how we would train somebody for selection. And it doesn't matter how much you can do enough. Like if you can't do the 80 pushups. Or you can't run, you know, um, five miles and in 35 minutes, like, it doesn't matter now, you don't necessarily need to do those things once you're qualified, but you've got to get your foot in the door. So I understand why some people don't do any strength, work at all in a selection based program. I like early on, I might do it twice a week and as it gets close, I only do it once a week. So I'm not doing a ton of it, but I think it does have some value. I mean, it sounds like, like you would do the strength work for somebody going into a selection program. Not necessarily to get them stronger, but to kind of keep their baseline level of training to kind of keep their floor where it is and not let it bottom out. Because if you said you can build better inquiry. Better are those movement qualities that they're going to have to be doing a ton of, whether it is pushups, pull-ups all the other kind of calisthenics that they do. If they do have a good line baseline level of strength that we can maintain with a one to two day a week, kind of strength training regimen. Yeah. It's the same reason why, like I would even advocate that most runners do even like a high level endurance athlete. Do strength work one or two days a week. I mean, you know, if you have like an endurance athlete who like never gets hurt, always feels great. Yeah. Maybe you don't throw on some strength work, but like, we work with a lot of runners who were chronically injured and in most cases they're doing zero strength work. And a lot of times like, You know, the lowest hanging fruit with them. It's like, Hey, if you do one or two weeks, days a week of strength training, like we're not, we're not saying do it four or five days a week, like one or two days a week for even like 20 minutes to a half hour. Yeah. It can, it can make a difference and provide just a little bit more durability to support their specific needs when they run. It's kind of like, it's always. When it comes to performance, like a fine line between general and specific training, like yes, like elite performers need to be somewhat specialized, but if they're so specialized, they lose that just general durability and robustness, then it can help to do some general work. And the idea is to do just enough general work to support their specific needs. But not detract from their specific training. And I think in a selection course, I think that some of some strength work general strength work is helpful. I think that's a good point overall, just that like, you know, regardless of how specialized you need to be for your sport or whatever activity that you're doing, it's like, there is still some sort of baseline level of. Other, other activities that you kind of should be doing to maintain that robustness and just that overall health and, and you know what we would call kind of movement variability to a certain degree. Cause when people get so specific, it's like, we kind of talked about it with some of the other, um, one of the last key, keep it real is kind of talking about the powerlifter. It's like, there's so many people that we see that we don't even change anything. We just give them something else to do that they aren't currently doing. We just give them, we just get them moving and, and, uh, like. Experiencing stress in just different ways than they're used to, whether it's, they're used to just running a ton, whether they're only used to lifting weights, we just kind of give them something that's a little bit different than what they're currently doing. We typically see pretty good results with that. Yeah. And Doug, your example, you mentioned, uh, about like an elite runner doing one or two days a week of, um, some strength training. Um, I was just going, I just went back to your case study that. You wrote about an elite runner and looked at their program for what you were doing with her and it wasn't, you were doing, you know, like five or six actual like strength movements is not. And I mean, strength is relative. They were, yeah, they were very basic things. And like, like you mentioned, just doing that, those basic things a couple days a week is just going to provide some level of variability and just build, build a. W a more athletic person, one sec. Yeah. And you know, there's a big shift in PT now. So like emphasizing load management and progressive overload, which is great. But if all you do a specific work, you're only you're loading the same patterns over and over again. And like, yeah, you might, you might be able to avoid injury doing that, but you want to have some level of variability. So we're not saying like, We don't want people to be complete generalists if they have a performance goal, because then they won't be good at anything. Right. But if you're, if like, if all you do is ever run, that's the only pattern that your body gets loaded in. Like, I think you can give yourself a little bit more of a, you know, like a physiological buffer, if you will, yourself in different patterns, because there's always a fine line between health and performance. And I think that a lot of times, like when you, when you cross over, when you sort of compromise your health, because when you get so specialized, you only load the same patterns over and over again. I mean, that's why, like, even, you know, I'm curious to hear about like with tendinopathies, like people say like, Oh, you know, people, tendons need load. Like, I think that's true. But I also think that a lot of people, like they only load their tenants in the exact same motor pattern over and over again, they probably need. Less loaded and certain patterns and more load than other patterns, because like tendons don't just do one thing and they don't just work in, like, they don't get loaded in one plane of motion. So, you know, like if you have like a, like a runner with like an endurance athlete with an Achilles tendinopathy, like, are we saying that they need to run more and they probably need to run less and build themselves back up, but maybe lower themselves in different ways. So that tendon is just used to more variability and, um, You know, I think it can be overly simplistic to say like, people have overuse injuries just need to, you know, need more load. Because a lot of times they have those injuries because they probably have loaded the same tissue. Right. Start over again. And like, yeah, you can make an argument that if you changed their program and they wouldn't have gotten to that threshold. But I think sometimes like, You do need to do different things to support and like inflammation is a real thing. So that's, that's gotta be managed for sure. And then, and that's something that you also had that, that same runner do your, your head are doing a bunch of different sort of like aerobic plyometrics, low level pliers type type stuff. And that's like, you're saying, doing something similar where like, yeah, maybe you're loading it, but it's maybe to a different degree or at a different angle where you can still train around. That sort of itis and get some sort of physiological benefit that, that idea of just loading it at different angles, I think is, is so huge. And it is, can be very simple. Like you can keep that same intensity of apply metric, but if you're just changing the angle that they're doing at it, if they're doing sort of just purely bulb really vertical, you know, Pogo hops, if they're doing like pretty intense line hops or lane hops or something where they're moving a little bit more laterally that God's going to change. Type of force that's going through that tenant and that can make somebody not experiencing their symptoms. And you're still getting those, you know, elastic qualities that you're still trying to train for that athlete. Yeah. W w we want to duplicate the activity close to weekend, but also like if they're symptomatic, we have to deviate from that. So, you know, yeah. I think it's just, it always comes down to like, this is not, there's no cookbook for this. I mean, it's always a blend between general and specific work, and there's a reason why, like certain things have survived the test of time. Um, and no matter what, I think people try to like reframe a lot of these discussions, they use different words, but, you know, I think even the good coaches and the good therapist and the 1970s were doing like, kind of the same things as the good coaches now. Um, and it's just, it's, it's like having the instinct as to know when to program certain things, what to take in what to take out. Um, but it's, I don't, I don't think it's as clear cut of saying like, just, just load it because like low load, what does that, what does that mean? Like, how do you want to load it? Um, we don't just want to arbitrarily low things. Like what's the intent, what's the goal? What are you preparing them for? I mean, we could, you know, if you want to just like load people, you could have them do, you know, do a farmer's walk for five miles, like, but is that gonna help you achieve your, your intent? We have to be, I think a little bit more methodical about like how we load them, what we're, what we mean when we say that. Awesome. Nice job. Going through that. Let's get topic. Let's say that answers that question. Do we want to start another one? Do we have time maybe real quick? Yeah, let's answer it. One more of those questions. Um, some of our favorite continuing education courses for performance based PTs. Yeah. So we did, we did an article about that, post it in the notes. So. The question is, you know, re uh, resources courses for performance-based PTs. I'm going to assume that, you know, like you have your anatomy base, your manual therapy base, your like kind of physical therapy assessment based either in PT school, they're more, more therapy centric courses. So I'm not going to talk about those things because, you know, I, there is obviously like not a clear delineation between a therapeutic environment or performance environment, but I'm going to focus. More on the performance end of things. So if I don't mention like a manual therapy course that somebody went to, it's not because I don't think it's good. It's because I'm trying to focus more on the performance aspect of things. Um, and because it's performance, I would say that you have to go outside your field to get it because physical therapy as a field tends to not emphasize the performance aspect of things. So a couple of resources that we're going to, I'm going to read them right off. The, the article, um, you know, when it comes to strength training, we have the book science and practice of strength training by . We have scientist sports training by Kurtz. Um, there's an article from John Keeley, periodization paradigms, the 21st century. I like Milan and which is strength, training manual. And then, you know, since the question was asked directly, we also, I think that our movement foundations course is a really good resource. It's almost like I think the FedEx course that PTs should get, but don't get in PT school. It's a little bit more performance centric. It's kind of like an exercise database and rationale for some higher level exercises. So you've got to have some weight. Well, the strength training needs of the performance continuum. And we have, um, linear and multi-directional speed resources. So we have, um, complete speed training, uh, by Lee Taft. Lee's got a ton of resources. I think complete speed training is a good one. He has more contemporary resources, but I think that if you wanna look into multi-directional speed lead with Lee would be probably like the first person first resource I would go to for that. Um, we've got to address, you know, running and sprinting, whether it's programming or. Techniques. So we have the book applied speech training by James Smith, different than the military selection book that we referenced earlier. Anything from Ken Clark has Instagram is actually a great free resource that goes over the mechanics of sprinting and key positional cues. Um, we have the, this short sprints course on our list here. Um, they've recently you come out with, I think like a, uh, uh, a team sport or a speed for team sports course. I haven't looked at that when yet I would imagine that that's probably even more applicable to the PTs and performance coaches, then the short sprints course, which is a little bit more track and field centric, but I found the, the short sprint scores to be very digestible, even for. As an, as a non track, uh, practitioner, so that that's, you know, both of those I'm sure are great resources, maybe pick one and you can't go wrong with either one. Anything from Derek Hanson, Derek's running mechanics course is really good. Um, I don't know if he's doing that in personnel, but great place to start when it comes to speed work. And then I think any, anything that Tony holler puts out, it's really good. He's got some courses that you can buy and also some great free resources and articles. And then when it comes to endurance and conditioning, so we've covered, you know, strength work, we've covered speed work. Now, how do we prolong those qualities for endurance and conditioning? I love the science of running by Steve Magnus. And Steve Magnus also has an online course kind of like a running programming course that, that he does. Um, that's also really good, but you can't go wrong with the book. Ultimate MMA conditioning by Joel Jamieson. Great resource. And then another book by Milan Jovanovich has hit manual, which is basically kind of like an interval training type book for team sports. Um, really good resource there. And then the last endurance based resource that we have is it's called training for the new albinism Emmanuel for the climber as athlete. It's a book that's written, um, for alpinists and kind of training for long outdoor expeditions. So, but even if you don't train those type of athletes, You'll you'll see a lot of similarities from the programming and the philosophical approach between, you know, how, um, Johnson and house work with elite alpinists and how Steve Magnus would work with an elite runner. And again, it comes down to what is the specific event, and then how do you support it with, you know, relatively speaking, lower intensity and higher intensity work. And I think that, you know, the more you can kind of look at how different endurance coaches program endurance and different sports. The more similarities. You'll see, it'll kind of demystify a lot of the programming you'll realize that it's actually quite similar, even though, you know, the athletic demands are a little bit different. So that's a ton of resources right there. They're not all courses. Some of them are books, but I think that they're really, um, cost-effective resources to kind of bridge the gap between, you know, more therapeutic, physical therapy and then kind of the return to sport type activities. And then I know that Trevor is working on a, a change of direction course, so. We're looking forward to releasing that in the next year. And I'm also excited for myself and my own learning because I'm not a part of that resource. You know how he's going to, um, synthesize a lot of those materials as well. Cool. Yeah, Trevor, any previews for that? I mean, what's it going to be like? I mean, so I wanted to, it's going to be focused on acceleration and change direction and agility and kind of how can we can use the biomechanical principles to be able to progress an athlete from that initial postop stage and getting them actually back on the, on the court and on the field. And what are some of the different, um, you know, less specific drills in terms of different. Strength activities and plyometrics, then how can we progress? You said into change of direction and grade change of direction, intensities, and then same thing. How can we get people back into agility, which has that reactive component, where they have to be reacting to some stimulus, to ultimately get them back on the court and field. Because I think that's kind of where, you know, there's a gap. If you will, with, with getting athletes safely back to sport is getting them back into that region. It's an environment where they can no longer think about everything that they're doing in. Yeah, the performance, real people really good at clothes drills, but how do we take that close drill and work on the movement patterns in the skills that athletes are going to need to be able to execute in this sport? I mean, just from a Mmm perspective, like what are we looking for when we're coaching drills or watching people do a rotational Cod or a shuffle or a lateral run, or what are the, some of the. Kind of common things that we should be looking for as code and as therapists to understand the strategy that the person is using when they're doing these activities. I think that's a, you know, Everyone's always talking about developing their, their coaching and it's hard to learn without hours and hours of it. So one of the things that's going to be, yeah. There's resources footage of some of the athletes I've worked with as we've progressed throughout the return of sport continuum, um, a Brittany down video and kind of, what are we seeing, you know, the STR how do they perform this movement? And what's the strategy they use at four months compared to the strategy that they used that six months. And those are some of the changes that we want to see over time that can help us determine if somebody can safely get back to sport. Because just because you're. Your outputs. Good. Doesn't mean your strategy's good. And if the strategy in good longterm, then I think that's a, a, has the potential for some increased risk that we're going to do our best to mitigate. So that's kind of what the course is going to be. Some of the overall things that we'll try to cover in this course. Yeah, definitely. Can't wait for that. I'm going to learn a ton for sure. I definitely need to go back to that list of resources too. It's a good, it's a good list to skip back. Cause some of that stuff for sure. Yeah. And I have gone back and read some of those books twice. Cause every time you go back and you, yeah. You get more, more and more out of it. Yeah, for sure. Cool. Yeah. Awesome. And then, uh, in the future, so next week is going to be our first, keep it real that we have some people join on with us. The plan would be to do something like we just did answer a question or two and 25 minutes or so, and then open it up for discussion and answer some questions related to it. So pretty. Pretty pumped for that. We already have a, I think there's 20 people that opted into it. We'll see. Uh, obviously they don't know what time we're recording it yet, which we haven't announced, but we'll see who can get there. We think it'll be a, a middle of the day, time in the week. So, um, but, uh, yeah, well, we'll see how that goes. So definitely join the mailing list and see if you can get, get in on one of these. Keep it real with us. You can see mustache, here we go. Why has the mesh depth dimension that the mustache, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I'll do it. Get people to tune into the YouTube page, who to watch these yeah. Good plug right there. Super Mario. Yeah, dude. That's the kind of thing I'm going to set their hair for it. Resilient green overall. So I can be a little bit, uh, you know, But that wouldn't really work. Cause it he's more Luigi, but we'll figure it out. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Awesome. Thanks everybody. Back to the warp zone. Yeah. As a thank you for listening, we'd like to offer a 10% discount on all [email protected] Please use promo code podcast at checkout that's P O D C a S T. And I also encourage you to sign up for our mailing list to receive exclusive articles only available by signing up. Thanks for listening.

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