E54 | William Wayland: Developing Power for Golf and Rotational Sports

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William Wayland is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS) through the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA). He works in Essex, U.K., where he is responsible for the preparation of UFC fighters, professional boxers, world champion grappling athletes, and professional golfers.

Topics Covered: 

  1. William’s coaching practice and work with professional mixed martial artists and golfers
  2. KPI’s in golf and how strength coaches can influence them
  3. William’s thoughts on “specificity” and why he trains golfers like vertical power athletes
  4. Insights from other rotational sports
  5. The concept of clubhead speed reserve
  6. Why you cannot optimize a system that isn’t robust
  7. What’s “strong enough” for golfers and how much work outside the sagittal plane is necessary beyond what the sport provides
  8. Special strength work for golfers
  9. Developing muscle mass for a faster swing
  10. The conflation of physiotherapy with golf training and how coaches and medical staffs can work together effectively
  11. The role of mobility training in recreational and elite golfers
  12. William’s new book, The Big Hitters Manual

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Episode Transcription: Going on now until September 10th. At noon, we are running a free giveaway of our moving foundations course and exercise database. Visit our Instagram account @resilientppt to learn more and enter. If you've already purchased these prizes, we'll get you our next course or provide a future discount of the same value either way. We'll make it work so you can benefit as well. Hope to see you there. Before today's episode, I want to ask for your interests. We'd like to open our, keep it real episodes up to you, the listener and have discussions on topics driven by the content of this podcast and our social media. If you're interested, we'd love to hear. So by dropping us a message on our Instagram, our handle is @resilientppt.  R E S I L I E N T P P T. Thanks.   Welcome to the resilient performance podcast. I'm your host, Doug . And today I'm joined by William Wayland. William is a certified strength and conditioning specialist through the national strength and conditioning association. He works in Essex United Kingdom, where he is responsible for the preparation of UFC fighters, professional boxers, world champion, grappling athletes, and professional golfers. If any of you follow William's work on social media, you'll see that he's been posting a lot about his work with golfers. Um, he has videos of some of his professional golfers. Doing supportive hand, supported split squats with 500 pounds with good form. And, um, and following his work for a while. And I've been intrigued by his approach to golf preparation, because it's a little bit different than what you typically see. I think we all, when we envision training for golf and the gym, um, it tends to conjure up images of, um, more physical therapy based training. Um, most of the movements tend to be rotational in nature. William as he talks about, and this podcast likes to train has golfers more like vertical power athletes. And I was interested in hearing his rationale for that. He gets into great depth about that rationale and also about some of the key performance indicators in golf and how strength and conditioning coach can actually influence those KPIs. William. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. So I wanted to begin by asking you about your strength conditioning practice. I know, um, I began following your work through your work with athletes and you've since kind of transitioned to golf, I've enjoyed your insight into training, both populations. So how did you gravitate towards working with these populations or how did they gravitate towards working with you? Yeah. So for the past, uh, seven years I've been, I've been operating as a private SNC coach, uh, in, in Chelmsford, in the UK and for the past, uh, three and a half years, I've been operating a private Sidley, um, there as well. And, um, the, the transition to, to MMA, um, from two golf came sorta. As a consequence of the, of the types of help this population needs. And basically, I didn't want my fighters who were, who were seeing physios and those same physios also see a lot of golfers because golf is obviously, you know, injury and injury prone population. So our fighters. And, um, the same physio started then referring me golfers, and then, you know, you do a good job and then those people refer to other people and then you, you build a network and, and that, that reputation grows and you get more and more clients eventually, as it works in, in private practice. And, um, you know, I did a good enough job that, that, um, some of these physios were impressed enough that, that, uh, I've got then referred to. Um, PGA European tool. And then, um, yeah, I started working with them as a, as a consultant. So, um, that's kind the, the, the, you know, Testament to, to, to incrementally doing a good job, I guess. And that's how I sort of started working with both those populations. Some of them messed up, sort of died down a little bit. Yeah. Then more recently it's picked back up again. Um, you know, everything, you have some flows anyway, and now. Uh, I'm in a position where I'm working. I've worked with the UFC fighters in the past, and I'm working with a few now, um, Korean Kenyan recently, um, you know, got contracted to the UFC, which is terrific. So I've worked with Arnold Allen now for a very long time. Uh, probably eight years we've been working together. So he's both of those athletes are good examples of long term, uh, you know, athletic development athletes. I've worked with Corey since she was 15. She's 21. Now I worked with Arnold since, um, You know, since his late teens, early twenties, um, you know, and they both, both now, you know, Arnold's top 10 ranking all the 10 in his division. And Cory's now looking at, uh, a path ahead of her in the UFC. And, um, yeah, I like working with both populations of, of, of golfers and fighters. Um, you know, someone made a joke recently that, uh, I'm only any good work with athletes, that things hard. So, uh, you, which is fine with me. Alright. And then now w w whether it's with the golfers or the MMA fighters, are they working out at your facility? Are you traveling with them to tournaments and fights or, or both? Yeah. So, uh, at the moment, because of the way MMA MMA works, um, most of these guys in the UK at the moment is, is bereft of like decent training camps for him and my guys. So a lot of guys go to where the talent is concentrated. So for instance, Arnold trains out in the, um, Turns out in Canada, uh, in Montreal with, um, first the hobby and then Corey, for instance, trains in, um, team alpha male with you arrive over the arrive fiber. Um, and then now the fight is, you know, the more, more and more. One's fighting a lower level shows are more local to me, so I can walk in them one on one more regularly. And the others it's mainly via correspondence. Or when they come back here, we'll do sort of intensive occasion periods where obviously they can get in with me the quality work, and then while they're away, they, they train via correspondence. Um, and that system works pretty well. And with the golf is obviously you're working with a touring athlete. There'll be periods during the winter, maybe where they can come see me for a month or so. Um, the Gulf off season is pretty short. So if they're playing like a lot of events a year, I don't get to see them very often. So again, that's all via correspondence. And then the work I do want for means that I'll travel out to the tool, wherever the event is, uh, be it in Dubai or somewhere like that, or maybe in and around Europe, I'll travel there. Work for a few days, um, you know, doing whatever they need and, and I'm available to any of the tour players at that point in time, not just the guys I work with and, um, you know, that work varies enormously in terms of scope and then I'll come back home. So, you know, it's sort of when things are normal on traveling a good fair bit of the year and then the rest of the time I'm based in my gym. Okay. Yeah. And I want to focus the discussion today. On golf. And I'll begin by asking what might seem like an obvious question, but, you know, as coaches and physios, we like to believe that the things that we do help athletes, but there's also the, the naive interventionism effect where we can actually do things that make them worse. So, you know, for you, what are some of the key KPIs, you know, performance indicators in golf and how can you as a strength coach actually influence those things so that you're actually presumably making them better at golf and not just having them. Kill time in a weight room. Yeah. So a lot of credit goes to my colleagues, uh, on a European tour, two people in particular, Simon Briley. And Dan Kauflin, um, who my colleagues and they put together a portable probably of impact probability of impact pyramid, um, that you can find that on online and the probably impact pyramid that they invented basically, uh, from top to bottom, the greatest, greatest impact we can have in SNC coaches up to the, to the least impact the things we least effect. Obviously the greatest amount of impact we have, um, is on injury prevention. A majority of golfing injuries. Like I think it's nearly 80% are overuse injuries. And, um, the literature States that we can reduce that by 50%. I certainly see it in my practice that golfers are the ones who are inherently less hurt and, uh, you know, death therefore have greater available, uh, to practice, uh, next step club head speed, uh, which is obviously very, very invoke at the moment with what's going on with say Bryson to shampoo. Athletes like that who've, uh, obtained a lot of club head speed know through SNC interventions during lockdown period, and also gained a lot of body mass. Um, and how this has impacted his club head speed and alum athletes are interested in that now. Uh, and then for the final. The very top of this pyramid is, is the art influence on, on, you know, technical execution. Um, it's obviously much smaller and the outcomes are somewhat unpredictable. Um, so like I'll okay. Usually given dimensions where we focus on speed work. Um, say like for instance, I had a conversation with athlete the other day and said, you know, let's take maybe 20% of your total drives that you're practicing and let's practice those with maximum 10. No technical input on my part. Just go out practice 20% of those drivers. So we're looking at it more from a physical place. Um, and, and, you know, he may see some acute club head speed improvements, but I can't be that sure that I'll have that much of an impact. What I'm trying to do there is train intent. Again. So my, the only impact we really have on technical outcomes are say, if the athlete's not hurt, they can practice more so they can practice their technique more. But that's the rule, the realm of the golf coach. And that's where a lot of collaboration is needed. Uh, yeah. Yeah. In terms of a broader sense, injury is number one and a club head speeds, number two, and then, you know, the technical stuff who knows. It's very hard to say if we're having any real influence. Yeah. And one of the debates that always comes up in any sport and with regard to the utility and effectiveness of strength coaches is this whole specificity concept. And you, you had a tutorial that I'm going to post in the, in the show notes with, you know, kind of your philosophy on golf training. And one of the statements that you made was. Trying to emulate on-field movements and the gym never ends. So where you can just take it too far where you chase specificity to the point that maybe it actually is not addressing some of the KPIs that you just mentioned. And you also said that if you're training golfers like a vertical power athlete, you're 80% of the way there. So can you elaborate on that? Because that, I mean, that runs counter to what a lot of people in the golf. Training and fitness world are saying, which is like, it's much more in my opinion, kind of like physio driven and specificity driven. And you, you don't see really much work in the sagittal plane at all. And you're emphasizing sagittal plane movements, um, you know, maximum strength rate of force development in the sagittal plane. So how did you kind of come to that conclusion? Yeah. So, um, I guess it's a case of, of, well, the biggest thing is I walked in to, to, so once I started working with S and C, my first thing to do is, is, you know, reverse engineer the sport and take a look at what's actually happening, um, from, from a technical and physical distance. And you, what was weird is I, golf is a clamoring for distance. So they, they really, really keen on distance. All the, all the evidence shows that the, if you're hitting it more than three, 100 yards, you're going to earn a lot more money than the guys who want so well, prize money superimpose. Well, what are the, what are the, what are the hi club head speed? Well, um, well the evidence is currently suggesting that if you've got a really high isometric mid-flight pool and he's got a good counter movement jump, um, those two things correlate to high club head speed. Well, um, what's the prerequisite for that? Those are both vertical measures. Not rotational measures. So it makes sense that we then working backwards. We need to put more vertical force emphasis into our training. Um, you know, again, these are, these are correlative, so we can't be totally sure. But then what happens is we obviously introduce a training intervention. We improve vertical force production. Copied speed goes up. Plays are hitting it further. They're way more prize money. So we're basically, you know, reverse engineering and then working our way back up to the outcome again. And obviously if the outcome is positive, then, then we're in a great situation because, you know, we know it's not working. If they're not improving club head speed. What I said before is, is that if you're getting stronger, um, club head speed keeps improving. Uh, we're we're on the right path, but if you're getting strong and Cuphead speeds, not moving anywhere, and there's obviously a technical or tactical, uh, intervention that's needed. Yeah, you kind of make the point in your book that just came out the, or I was about to come out the big hitters manual that, you know, the technical practice is involves a bunch of rotation work outside the sagittal plane. And so your thing is, in my thing, a lot of times is as a strength coach, what can you give the athlete? But they don't have, they're not getting in their sport. And sometimes being as unspecific as possible, at least in terms of, you know, maybe the plane of movement. Or like the, you know, the biomechanical patterns might actually be the most helpful to their sport. And you referenced some insight that you gained from, from other rotational sports, like javelin and baseball. So how does even MMA when it comes to striking, how did those rotational sports and kind of your study of those sports influence kind of your thought process when it comes to golf? Because there are some similarities. So obviously the biggest one being baseball, because recently I've worked together with, with Terrance kennel who works at Houston Astros and we've we've collaborated or collaborated a lot just recently. So yeah, the study of the baseball hitter, something we both learned is that as we got our athletes stronger club head speed went up in baseball as they get stronger, exit velocity on batting goes up. So, you know, the fact that those two commonalities exist between the two sports, the athletes keep getting stronger, you know, exit velocity club, head speed, keep going up. There's obviously a strong relationship between those two things. And then the other thing that relates pretty well with body mass. So, you know, those, those, those wind's a bit different because obviously you get a running start, but it seems that obviously you believe to apply force. Um, you know, particularly when you've got a long duration of time, and this is the other thing that that fact is in that people don't consider people think golf is a very fast sport and yes, if you look at the, the, the, the ball, the club hits the ball, the club is moving at incredible speed, but the overall movement of the, of the golf swing is actually slow in a sporting sense. Um, yeah, the wind up and then release. Um, I think it's 0.8 to nearly 1.2 seconds, which in a sports context, there's an absolute eight people cite that offer. What is it? Two immediate, sorry. Uh, 0.2 seconds for sort of sporting action and say a field sport. Um, so zero, sorry. Uh, and, um, you know, that that's the gold standard? Well, some schools, that's not the case. They've got more time to actually recruit. Um, force production. So in golf is an exact exited example swing. Yeah, the club is going back. You watch what the low body's doing effectively. They're doing almost a quarter squat and they've got plenty of time to do it. So all that down force then provides them excellent Anchorage in order to produce a lot of rotational force, you know, the old average, you can't shoot a cannon from canoes true here, you know, and, and that's the case. And the thing is, it's almost like in golf, they've been focusing so much, so on the, um, swing mechanics, they almost missing the broader holistic. A physicality that goes into the swing. So, um, they, they almost put the cart before the horse, which is we are, which is warming because if you're, if you're, if you go in and you think, well, obviously we're looking to optimize swing mechanics. Then what we need to do is load elements of the swing, which is sort of simplistic approach. Well, you know, we know that, you know, you've gotta be a little bit more reductive than that and take that back a step further. And, um, Uh, the saying I like is, is the, basically a lot of golf. When I, when I first started working with a lot more golf, I noticed that that practice was very optimization focused. So they were looking at completely trying to optimize the system. Um, you know, the TPI systems based about Brown fixing swings, uh, as they see them. And, um, which I don't fully agree with. Cause I think swinging is a highly idiosyncratic activity. Not every golfer looks alike. So Swift fishing, switching, fixing bolts can always be very problematic because you're trying to fix idiosyncrasies, which, which isn't. Um, and yeah. By being totally optimization focused. If we think of this in terms of say a Pareto principle, you know, 80% of your results, you know, it's an 80 20 split almost as though it was the way I try and describe it. So, you know, uh, a lot of golf was missing that 80% of their raw physicality, that 20% optimization, which we get from say swings, swing strategies, including, you know, speed swinging, stuff like that. That needs that 80% of, of, um, you know, physicality or another way we could describe it is like the Dumbo strategy or the Babo strategy. Um, you need to put most of your time in low-risk interventions. Um, that's cool that you're your meat and potatoes type training. And then that, that last 20% is your optimization strategies. That's when you need to worry about fault-finding and stuff like that. But what they do is engulf SNC for the most part, go fitness. They've almost flipped it over where they think the, the, the, the majority focus 80% of your time needs to be spent on that, that, that. Optimization or what they call it optimization, which in fact for a lot of the time is just messing about, um, you know, which is you see it. And golf is a pillar quite a lot online because you see what a lot of their strength and conditioning interventions. And it's basically just trying to replicate swing mechanics in various fashions with various loads, with various different toys. And it really gets people know. Yeah. And I think that you make the point in the book that it's not a bad stuff is bad, but. It's already going on with the swing coach and as a strength coach, like your tools are tools that allow you to externally load that system, which is something that you can't get on the golf course with a swing coach. And you're not training that vertical component or overloading it, you know, on the course, like you can in a weight room or more detached sort of a setting. Um, and so you you've mentioned that like developing this, this vertical power can help with clubs, beds, club, head speed. You also talk about in the book. Which I think was interesting because we always hear about the concept of speed reserve in the context, field sports, right? So you increase your maximum velocity, improves your repeats, sprint, sprint mobility. You're speeding. It's not that it's a unique concept, but can you talk about club, head speed reserve in the context of, you know, playing in a tournament where, you know, the, the more you develop that now, if you're swinging in a match and a series of more submaximal swings, how it makes those swings kind of more efficient. So, this is where, um, the concept is that you're, you're practicing, you're swinging at the highest velocities you can physically achieve. And by raising that ceiling of your swing. So let's say, let's say you start, your max swing is 130, which is fast and that's pretty fast for anybody. Now, your average swings are maybe one 15, one 12, um, because your accuracy is going to be higher at that lower speed. Um, what we want, if you want to hit it further is you're going to have to be connecting with the book, uh, at a hundred, 120, maybe 130 miles per hour. But with that high degree of accuracy, well, where do you find that? And obviously we looked at, get athletes doing is they start swinging maximum velocities and we try and bring that up during that ceiling up. The average velocity Dan comes up. So if you can hit the ball at 150, 160 miles per hour, when you are absolutely all out going for, um, you're not saying that when you're playing, you have to swing at that speed. What happens is your average velocity comes up. So average swing speeds. No, if you're hitting it a hundred, if you're able to hit it 150. You know, your average swing, you know, it becomes an effortless 130 mile per hour swing. And that's where the money is because you can hit it 130 miles per hour. You're still hitting it an exception with distance. You know, we're not saying when you're on the ball, you'll be hitting at 150 360, you know, the long drive guy. Those guys don't care where the ball goes. You at least want some control over where the ball goes. So if your average swings are that much higher, because your ability, your top end capacity is way, way higher swinging at 120, 130 is going to be a lot easier. So, yeah, it's, it's that, that idea of raising the ceiling. Um, but that raising the ceiling can only be done. When you brought the floor up, so to speak. So you need to have that broad base of general physicality in order to support that optimization of maximum swing speed. If that makes sense. Yeah. And then is there any data that you're aware of about what some of the top players on tour, like what their max club head speed is not what they're doing, you know, in a tournament, but you know, separate from that. So we have, we have our normative scores that we have. So for instance, top very, very top percentile would be 125 miles per hour. We would consider you in the top 10% of players. Um, and then the product is some of the slower speeds are down to like one 15. Um, you know, at one 12, which is, which is kind of on the slower side. So there's, you know, and the argument is, I think it's one point mile per hour is roughly three yards distance. So, you know, you think about it, you know, that's a difference in sort of, you know, up to 30 yards, which can make a lot of difference when it comes to playing for a lot of cash money. So, you know, it's, it's, it's it's you want that extra, extra distance, um, you know, if you can gain strokes off T. That's a, that's a massive game changer for you. So, you know, that's, that's why it's important for these guys to look, to optimize their club. Head speeds. Now there are guys, you hit it short and can still work, still recover from that. But all the golfers I talked to they're like, I'd rather hit it further, have to hit it out of the rough, then hit it shorter and have it on the fairway. So, you know, because the closer you are to the tee, the better. And they're more willing to, to, to deal with that variance that comes from hitting it further than hit it shorter and have to make, you know, potentially make up more shots. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's a game of, of, of where you want to apply risk really. And that's what hitting it further does view. It literally gives you more tactical options and that's the way you've been trying to sell it to a lot of golfers. Cause some of them are really still very much worried that that that gaining mass or gang strength will, will affect their swim swing somehow. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, trying to strive for like one 40, one 50, you know, raising the ceiling to that. How in your experience, like how attainable is that with the right training? Um, again, you've got to have all the, all the right pieces in place. Um, there are some athletes that, that with no physical training are capable of very high club head speeds. These guys are very lucky either. They've got high technical, uh, you know, really high technical ability or they're naturally quite athletic and they're able to merge those two things together. Um, and then. I'm always careful. I never promised people more club head speed. I say, you always say we might be able to. So I'm very careful with the language I use because I can't guarantee anything, but we do offer a physio. I say, well, you know, the majority of this population for a start, let me, let me be clear is pretty under-trained. So he always generally seen improvement with most reasonable strength and conditioning interventions. Um, it's the place who've been doing, perhaps the more swing specific interventions that are a little bit disillusioned because they've been trying and trying and trying to apply these very sport-specific specific approaches in the gym and wherever they see no club it's been improvement. So then they start asking questions and it's like, well, maybe I should do more general physical training that their realization sometimes comes to them themselves. So, you know, it's, it's a case of, um, just being very, very careful, but I've seen it where from, from people gaining, for instance, I had a case the other day, um, after three sessions, Um, and, uh, as slight modification and the biggest thing I guess, to take away was intent. So you go out there and you hit the ball as hard as you physically can. For 20% of your shots, they went from one 12 to one 25 in three sessions, and the difference was they didn't get stronger. Did they? The difference was, is they were attacking with intent. They were going off, they were actually trying to put more effort in it's what they were doing, because one of the, I guess, classically with golf, it's all about having a smooth, natural swing that golf coach never generally goes out there and tells them to absolutely try and murder the bull. And that's the one change we made. It was just say, like go there and try and absolutely kill it. You know? That's an extreme example, but we've huge physical training. We see anywhere, you know, within an intimate yeah. Sort of few mile per hour, after a couple of months of training to, to significant changes sort of 10 mile per hour, but it varies it very area syncratic. So it depends on the individual. It depends. And their training status. Um, but generally, you know, If we test them and then mid Paul's weak and they can't move them, jump is poor. We can pretty much, you know, not guarantee, but come close to it. That getting stronger is probably going to make it, have some significant impact potential on your club, head speed. But again, we're always careful with what we suggest we're capable of. Because again, we're not so arrogant as to say, well, we're not entirely sure what the outcome will be. Yeah. And based on what you're saying, it seems that you're not trying to tweak what the mechanics of people's golfer swings, but more so like the intent in trying to train the physicality of it. Now, do you, I'm guessing that these are technical coaches that you work with and have a good relationship with. Have you ever gotten any. Pushback from a technical coach that you're like, Hey, you're messing with this guy swing. I don't want you telling them to swing hard. Or is it the kind of thing where you're collaborating before you give that recommendation off the golf course? Yeah, generally. So golf is weird. Um, in the most of the time, most of the athletes I'm working with their coaches, uh, they, they see them occasionally. And the coaches aren't constantly with them. So golf is unique in that regard. You know, if you're working in a team sport, everything has to be bounced off the coach, right? While the coach wants some involvement in golf, they're more independent. So they don't actually have a ton of, um, you know, constant intervention via, via the coach. Now, there are so many athletes where that's different, the coach will actively. Play a big role in, in, in coming to tournaments with them and stuff like that. And on the whole, for the most part, the, the up and coming guys who I generally get to work with are very pro they're very pragmatic and they're quite pro. Um, you know, interventions that could potentially get them more club head speed. Um, I guess it would say it'd be the more established staff fleets that have been doing it a certain way for a long time where they and their coach they're hesitant. So yeah, to put more work in to try and convincing them, this is why objective data. Cause golfers love information. They love data. Yeah. I love numbers. So they're very numbers driven athletes, which is great because if you get them in and do some physical testing and say, well, Yeah, you pulled this on your mid thigh pool. This is where the upper percentile is. This is where you need to be instantly. They'll go, well, I need to work on that there, you know, and by giving them that objective information, you know, cause they're so used to dealing with club head speed. Yardage is strokes gains. You know, golf is a statistics playground. If you want to dig into it deep. And, and those guys like numbers. So if you can give them objective numbers based stuff, No, rather than perhaps more sort of feel less, more subjective or in itself, which is what a lot of what they get already from, from a lot of their physical training objective in nature. So by giving them some objectivity, something numbers oriented, they sometimes actually latch onto that. And quite like the idea that they're trying to boost numbers or, or we'll do it that way. So, which I didn't expect, I expect them to be very much about sort of feel oriented and very subjective when it comes to the way their physical training goes. And obviously. Um, as you progress your physical training, it doesn't become more nuanced in that way. But a lot of them, I think they're just tired of being sort of, um, deal dealt with almost like kid gloves when it comes to the physical training element. You know, some of them are actually aware that that robustness and that physicality is a big part of what they need, but for the most part, most coaches, yeah, I've never really had a lot of pushback. Um, only sometimes, you know, it's a more old school guys, you know, uh, that, that are less into that type of stuff. And you still see bits and pieces online, but the worst people for the detractors for that type of thing, the Coleman tree and pundits, and, um, you know, commentators on Twitter and Instagram, they're the ones who seem to have real problem with it. Yeah. Cause golf is just one thing. Golf is weird because, uh, quite a popular recreational sport. And it's the one of the few sports where pros and amateurs actually get to play together from time to time, you know, the pro am and golf is such a weird thing. I still can't get my head around it. Like imagine any other school where you got to play as an amateur with other professionals, uh, you know, at a tournament event that doesn't happen in any other sport. Like, so, you know, it's, it's weird because a lot of the pushback, I guess, comes from recreational guys who are just focusing on improving this wig and not really worried about too much else. Yeah. And I think you've made a good case that, you know, this vertical power training does have a transfer to the club head speed and to the golf performance. As we talked about, specificity is not this linear thing. There are second order effects, there's tangential effects, but you also, in one of your, you know, your tweets, you said, um, you can not optimize a system that is not robust to make a, a case for strengthening. So even if we can't objectively prove transfer, you're saying that. There is a place for strength training when, in terms of like overall robustness. So can you just elaborate on that a little bit, because I think that there's and Milan talks about this in his book. I think there's reasons to strength, train, even if you can't objectively prove that at quote unquote transfers. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the, the, the sell on this and talk about robustness, I guess, is, is, um, uh, injury minimization, or I don't like the word prevention because that's a, that's, that's a, that's a misnomer. Um, You know, so yeah, in terms of building a robust system, and again, we know in golf, the overuse injuries and the most prevalent one, you know, again, going back to that, that 80% number, if we can mitigate that, but making a person more robust. And that's where a lot of it seems to come from, we know that back wrist showed a, seemed to be the most common injury points. Um, people talk to me about how, how do I deal with golfers that are injured? I'm very fortunate because of the type of training I try and employ. We get very few injuries. It's only when perhaps when someone tries to make a technical intervention and a golfer is doing something in their swing. We get a tissue overload and then that bam, uh, a problem, you know? Um, but for the most part, you know, it's, it's by making them robust. In a general physical sense. So, um, just being strong, whatever that means, you know, and, and in my case, it's generally having them hands on with barbell work, conventional barbell work, um, you know, and, and, and a lot of people who I roll and go, well, that's kind of obvious. There's like, well, if it's obvious, then why aren't people doing it? You know? And, um, it's, it's, you know, I disliked the number, but like, can they, can they, can they double. Body weight squat can they want and a half, one and a half times body weight squat, if that can they pull twice their body weight on a trap bar, can they bench crass 1.2, five times their body weight? These aren't unreasonable numbers, but they're numbers that would definitely give them a sense of physical. Empowerment robustness, because that plays a big role as well. They feel strong. They're more likely to, to, to then take on greater tasks, you know, whereas if you treat them like they're fragile all the time, their sense of self becomes corrupted by this idea that they're weak and they're potentially damageable. So they perhaps limit their practice. They won't chase intent, you know, but when you you're strong, when you feel powerful, You're going to chase that intent because you're like, this is in my scope. I can, I'm trying to optimize it myself here. And that's a big part of it too. Cause I know that when athletes do feel strong, they do feel powerful. They feel robust intent-based and optimization based strategies suddenly become something that's that's that's uh, you know, Attainable when they see it almost like sharpening a sword, you know? And, and, um, that's difficult to do if you don't have that background of robustness. And this is where I think in a lot of times it gets it wrong. It's always focused on optimization first again, like I said, you can't optimize a system that isn't robust and that's what a lot of golf SNC consist of with the moment is just trying to optimize systems that aren't robust. But what I'm all I'm doing is offering them that handle. A little bit more robustness, a little bit more injury proof, so to speak. Um, and then once you've got all that under hat in hand, then you can chase your optimization strategies, whatever they look like. Yeah. And I think that, you know, like on the surface it makes sense like, yes, most people especially were under-trained would benefit from some kind of strength training that the natural question that arises after that as well. What is strong enough in the context of golf training, you kind of alluded to it a little bit. I think an analogy is like a bank account, right? Like if you only have enough money in the bank account to pay for your daily expenses, it makes daily living pretty expensive, right? You're operating at like a hundred percent of your sort of expenditure capacity. Having money in the bank makes the cost of the performance less expensive too, but then you don't need to have a billion dollars in the bank either. So for, for you and your system, what do you consider sort of, what are your benchmarks that you consider strong enough? And kind of related to that, how much work outside of the sagittal plane in the weight room do you think is necessary beyond what the sport provides? Hmm. So again, this is an issue of, um, where are they currently? Because obviously again, idiosyncrasy always turns up to mess things up for you. You know, athletes are, especially, it's certain athletes based on leverages, particularly a sport like golf that favors certain body types. Um, you know, you have to be careful where you, where you were, uh, placing the, the dominance in your training and what I've found for the most part is that, um, The ceiling on, on that relationship between strength and performance outcomes, golf, we don't really know where it is. We've not found it yet because no, one's really explored it far away. Yeah. We're learning more. Um, so we know that the high levels of midnight pool, you know, Carla to, to, to club head speed. Um, you know, Alex Elbert has done some great stuff, summarizing research showing, you know, where the, where the highest level of, of, of Carla, uh, sit in terms of most. And, and that vertical force one is a massive one. Body mass is the other one. Um, and then there's some upper body stuff in there as well. It seems to correlate pretty well. And for me, it's, it's a case of, and I argued this, uh, on another podcast, um, which I had to Mayo and I was saying to him, how. Well, when we're performing our intervention, because we, you know, where the ceiling sets, what we look for, if the athlete's getting stronger and the club head speed keeps improving. We're on the right path. If we can. Yeah. Strength, training hard. And the club head speed is suddenly stops moving, or is it going anywhere? We probably step away a little bit. That's not the intervention we need anymore. That's where we need perhaps, um, special strengths or, you know, speed interventions. And because, because. It seems that the role that heavy physical training is something that's not really fully explored. Um, it's nice being in a, in a sport where I'm still exploring that stuff and seeing where the ceiling sits. Um, and having athletes that work with me that are willing to explore that too. They're not timid. So, you know, if I'm trying to get them to a triple body weight trap bar, dead lift, they're like. They don't think that's unreasonable, you know, but it's taken time to build that relationship where they have the confidence to perhaps chase numbers like that. You know, my strongest swing is now, um, you know, have two and a half on body, weight, trap bar, dead lifts. Um, you know, some of them being dead lift similar to that, which I guess most golfers would consider outrageous. And for a lot of my golf clients, particularly the ones that are very busy, I would consider that too high. But. You know, it's a case of still exploring, well, where does the optimal relationship set? And this is again, coming back to my discussion with, with Terrence kennel at Houston Astros, he was saying, we got guys trap out, dead lifting, um, nearly triple body weight and their exit velocity. You still keep getting better. Well, it's like, well maybe in these sports where the, the, the completion sequences is long, much like hammer much like, um, you know, ShotPut. Those guys are outrageously strong, right? Some of the best strongest athletes I've ever seen a hammer throw is, and their time to completion and technique is quite long and it bears probably more similarity to golf and baseball than it does to other sports. And, um, I can't remember who said it, it may have been an Al uh, Alva meal. He said, you know, uh, it's worth training. Golf is like, like throws. You know, because, because the commonalities are more, they're more similar than they are different, you know? And I make the same point in, in, in the big hitters manual that, um, the reason this manual exists, one that I've written for both, both golf and baseball is that the majority of the work they need to do is more similar than it is different. And again, you know, we're exploring, we're still trying to find out where the optimal place sits for most golfers to get strong. And again, because it's kind of untapped, we still don't really know. So it's, it's kind of an ongoing process. I know it's a very long winded answer to that question. Appreciate the honesty. And I mean, you're, you're using, you're using the meth to keep the KPI that you care about, which is club head speed to kind of dictate whether you think that what you're doing is working, which I think is, uh, is very reasonable. Uh, you know, not in the off season where there aren't as many confounding factors, how many days a week do you have your golfers in the gym lifting? Because they, because the, because they practice so regularly, it's usually maybe only three days a week lifting. Some someone switched to for, um, you know, upper body push pull or something that usually it's, it's roughly three days per week. Not much more than that. A few guys will demand more. And again, that's where we're again, idiosyncrasy slips in some guys like to train every day. Sometimes I don't like to train every day. Um, the biggest switch up though, is that when it comes to in-season, I'm very, very, um, I'm hands on with it, with how we try and control the load and volume during in season because, um, golfing season is hard and a lot of people don't appreciate that. That how hard he is trying to balance everything together. So. Yeah. When it comes to in season, maybe two days a week, some of them want to try more, but usually two and then off season, it's usually three because practice nonstop and they hit a lot of balls. I think I mentioned the problem with them. Not. I'm monitoring volumes on bull bull on how many balls they hit is also a massive issue as well. Uh, I think I mentioned that in the big hitters manual, too, about how the volume is is, is something that people don't don't, don't don't track, but it's such an easy thing to track in terms of both volume. And if you can do that, you've got a handle on, on how you physically, and a lot of guys don't do that at all. And it's like, well, if you want your physical training to work alongside your golf practice, you need to model the volumes. You know, you're monitoring your training volume in the gym while you're monitoring your volume on the range, you know? So that's a big factor as well. In your experience, is there a point or a volume of, you know, number of balls hit on the course that you think where it's diminishing returns, whether it's like, you know, weekly, daily, you know, for a pitcher it's kind of like a hundred pitches is like sort of the magic number where you start to be like, all right, I've got to pull this person. Is there any kind of a similar. Type number, whether it's, you know, weekly or daily that, that you look out for. Yeah. It's funny. I was talking, talking to Terrance as well. Something, he said his pitches really carefully monitor their, but they're throwing volumes because of the injury, uh, in baseball, not at all. They'll just get into the batting cage and just keep hitting balls. You know, so it's, and they don't really record the record. The volumes. It seems to be the same thing as in golf. And there was a, there was some research done. I think it was a piece of PhD research done by England golf, where they were basically sending out surveys to coaches and athletes, trying to figure out how many balls, what bull volumes were. It was either per month or per week. And, uh, I was, I spoke at a conference maybe three or four years ago and they presented this data and basically it was all over the place. Some people were hanging a hundred booths. Some people waiting thousands of booths and it's like, We don't know what the optimal volume is. Again, nobody's really taking the time to look into this stuff. It's the same. Yeah. It makes it, it makes no sense. So this is, and this is where it's such a simple thing you think to take ownership of the people aren't on. It just, it boggles my mind, like why, you know, a sport that's that prizes numbers. So highly doesn't do that in its practice. It's such a strange disconnect, you know? So it's like, well maybe if we did start more in volumes, we can control for load because. Most of what I've seen on a, on a person, on an anecdotal level, is that when obviously there's an introduction of a new technique, the athlete's keen to perhaps try out some, some new technical change, they'll go hit mobiles and they normally do again, the tissue overload problem then becomes a problem and it's like, You've got to carefully monitor what you're loading and when, and what changes you're making and why. But a lot of people don't monitor that stuff, you know? So it's just, that's, that's perhaps it an influence as an instancy coach I can have on the technical practice is to say, Hey, maybe you need to monitor a little bit more, you know? Um, because golf is treated a lot, like an art, and I guess that's where they lack perhaps objectivity to some extent, you know, cause the objectivity comes from when they play. Cause it's so numbers oriented when they're practicing, they perhaps don't do the same thing. Yeah. And it's, it's funny because if you look at other sports like running, right, I mean, for a distance runner, weekly mileage, like every distance runner knows their weekly mileage, and it's not the only metric that they should track, but at least they're aware of it. It's a starting point. Then you have sports like golf or baseball where outside of like pitching no, one's keeping track of the number of rotations, whether it's with a golf club or a, or a baseball. And the issue that you kind of brought up is. If, if a golfer increases his or her, you know, swing volumes, so to speak because they're working on what a coach identifies as a technical fault. And at the same time, they're starting like a lifting program and they get like a back injury. No one, no, one's going to look at the golf swing and say, that was the cause of the injury. They're going to say, Oh, this guy started lifting. Now we shouldn't lift anymore. So it's important to track these things so you can draw the right conclusions and not blame, you know, the wrong culprit. For, you know, injuries that do arise. Yeah. And, and false attribution is a problem in golf. It happens quite a lot. Um, you may recall tiger coming out recently saying that he blamed some of his injuries. In retrospect, perhaps on the fact that he was trying to run like that five miles a day, you know, and it's like, Um, things like that, like people don't account for an SNC is always going to get thrown under the bus. Particularly if there's a lack of understanding, it's easy to go. Well, it was the, it was the SNC program, not the, not the technical changes or whatever that people make. So yeah, it becomes the poor relation in that regard. Whereas as we know, you know, ideally it's all integrated. You want to be holistic about the whole thing, you know, but it's too easy just to go, well, this novel practice is what's caused the problem let's digit, you know, and then that's, that's part of the risk. Yeah, blame the deadlifts. Um, now you talked about, you know, there, there is a point where if club head speed plateaus and people, people are still, you know, gaining strength, you might say, okay, now it's time to do some, some more special strength work. So what does that look like in the context of, of golf conceptually or like a practical example for you? Yes, sir. So in this case, it's where, um, you know, that that's where we stopped then thinking, well, maybe. Um, we can start moving out at the sagittal plane and into, into transverse and lateral. Um, so that's when we start looking at, at, uh, you know, um, optimizing torso. And the relationship between flow that's where we go. Well, we've, we've, we've improved vertical force production. How do we then transfer that? Insert it into lateral will that what's the easiest tool we can use for that. So for instance, med ball throws are an easy intervention because that way you get, you get foot to hand coordination. And, and I do the same thing with fighters. So, um, I'll look to optimize, um, you know, uh, throwing and we'll do various types of throws, uh, both extensive and intensive throwing, um, you know, uh, various volumes, depending on the athlete's capacity. Usually if they've not done a lot of medical work, we build slow. And, and then, and then build up to sort of, sort of moderately high volumes, something surprised me talking to album mill, who worked with a lot of golfers during the nineties. He was saying, he wished he'd been more aggressive with the, with the loading, with the med ball work. And I think that again, that mentality of treating them like they're fragile. Um, and, and doing a lot of, a lot more throws with those guys. Um, so we start doing a lot of unlike med ball throws as well. We're not talking very heavy, maybe, uh, you know, two, two pounds, um, you know, not much more than that, and we're not, again, looking to replicate the golf swing. It's a throw in the roars sense. So like chocolate type throws, um, metal style sort of punch throws, and then sort of, um, lateral swings and then. Um, what we look to do is, is special is then specialized someone with low body mechanics. So we'll look to block the lead leg and internally rotate through the front hip, you know, um, from the lead side, um, which is what happens in a golf swing. And that's about as specific as we get, we don't look to replicate the swing per se. Um, but we just look at some of them, the ground mechanics trail, leg, lead leg, what are they doing? How can we optimize that? And then have them throw a med ball as hard as they can in conjunction with that. And then if we're then looking to specialize further. So I posted a few videos where I show like a progression sequence at like vertical forces, the production nipple throw into speed swing, and we use that as a complex. Oh, or contrast type training. Um, and then the last thing is usually a speed swing. It's full, full, full sports mechanics. I don't do any tech, the book coaching, the athlete knows exactly what to do and they'll swing a lightened club as fast as they can, um, for the, for the overspeed benefits that they're chasing. And we'll use that as it like a. A triple set or something where they'll do a jump, they'll do a throw and then they'll do a swing. So we get that ascending dynamic correspondence. It gets closer and closer to the sport. And then particularly, you know, if we were looking to, to pick them for an event, we'll do more of that, that speed swing type work. Very cool. And then you also talk a lot in the book about the importance of muscle mass for club head speed. Is that something where you're having golfers. Chase a specific goal. Like I want this person to gain 10 pounds. You just kind of, um, leopard training and nutrition, you know, sound training in nutrition is going to lead them to the right place. Kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of, we let that one lead itself. Um, you know, we don't give them a set white to, to gain again, these are guys that are again, highly numbers oriented, so we're very careful what we give them to it, to achieve. And, you know, especially when. Um, Bryson went out and gained so much body mass. I think it was like 30 pounds or something, um, over six months. And I'm like, that's perhaps a little bit too lofty, you know? Um, so these guys are because they're, they're, they're so pear. Interested they'll follow the appease as to what they do. So if Bryson gains 30 pounds, people are well, I'll get on 6,000 calorie shakes a day as well, and see what happens. And for some people, obviously that isn't the correct Avenue to go down, but they they're very much, you know, they'll, they'll follow each other about, if someone's doing X, then I'll have to do X, you know, and, um, yeah, we kind of let it take care of itself. What I do do is make sure that had a positive, doesn't get too high. So, you know, that's either just a look in the mirror or, um, we'll, we'll, we'll check their body weight and make sure they're not gaining too much mass too fast. You know? So if it's past like a sort of normal amount, if they've, they're gaining more than maybe a kilos a month, that's that's, you know, that's pretty quick. Um, you know, white gains to substantial muscle gain, you know, quality, weight gain tastes slow and you've got to educate them. That's a slow process and it's gonna, um, you know, a few years of work, uh, you look at one of the golfers I work with who's, who's gone from like weighing, um, something in the high seventies is now in the low nineties. That's a process of three years. So that's probably about three to four kilos of lean muscle mass a year. And his body fat hasn't changed very much so that's slow, you know, but people aren't aren't ready for that type of slow muscle gain. You know, it may be with some newbies. Particularly, if they're under reading, they study end up in a calorific, AXA, excess, they're doing some hypertrophic type work. They suddenly gain a lot mass suddenly, but that's because they're kind of super compensating against the state they were in previously. And some of them do under the nutritional course and nutrition and golf is a, is a, is often not, not the best. Um, and you also write about the conflation of a physio with golf training, golf fitness. Now they've kind of become synonymous. And you've also, you've written extensively about where you think the role for a physio and strength coach, you know, what should be delineated as far as the responsibilities. So, and I, you know, I want you to be totally honest as a physio cause you know, physios tend to be obsessed with biomechanics. I've been guilty. Yeah. That and golf is a very biomechanically driven sport. And it's one of those things where as you know, the more you look, the easier it is to find fault. And there's always something that you could be chasing, which creates endless job security. For a physio, but there's, there's a downside of that. So can you talk about like, what do you think the role, the role is a physio, the role of strength conditioning, and then kind of how they can work together to maximize the potential of the athlete. Yeah. So you've you said it, I didn't say it. So I'm glad about that. So yeah, there's a, there's definitely disconnect. Yeah. And, um, I think it's because, uh, most golfers, because SNC wasn't, isn't a forcing golf. It's now increasingly becoming one, but for the longest time, um, you know, golfers would hurt themselves, usually real overuse. And then they go see a physio and then the physio would help rehab the injury. And then there'd be a vague suggestion, maybe that well, physical training and help prevent further. So I said, well, you seem to know what you're doing. Can you give me physical training program? And now if you're a private, you don't want to turn down an opportunity to make some money or you, you know, so they'll write a, an intervention and that intervention is usually physio oriented because you know what you know, right. So, um, and they end up with an intervention for glutes. You know, a lot of physio tools often divorced from their original intent. So the Bosu ball is still a, a commonality in gold, a SNC as is the Swiss ball, you know, and doing things on top of these implements. And it very much smacks it. Well, this what's happened is well, meaning physio has recommended something and it's just bled into too. What is perceived to perhaps be performance training. Now, have you talked to any strength conditioning coach? They'll tell you that it's not performance training. So. The, the, I guess the commonalities lie when they want to build both build robust athletes. What a SNC coach defines as strong and robust is perhaps a little bit different. And so what a physio. Yeah. Instead it strong and robust, both won't return to play. They both want injury, free play. Obviously SNC coach has specialization lies in, um, you know, performance improves and the physios specializing in injury prevention, but also. Prehab and rehab. This is where the two absolutely need to talk to each other a lot more, because again, we don't want bad. We don't want a bad fit, bad personal training being the end point of physio. Right. At the same time, we don't want SNC coaches. Diagnosing or preschool, Bing things to help deal with injury. You know, and I have my, I have my team at my place and we refer back and forth constantly. Um, my physio main physio, Alex, he's got an excellent bed to Baba mentality in that we've got, uh, you know, he breaks out our physio bed in the middle of the gym and he'll walk a Paulson person off the bed, post assessment into the rack, you know? So there's that definite connection between the two things. And I feel that sometimes where golf. Strength conditioning has been your golf, golf fitness. Do you use the term is like over medicalized again, obsessed with finding faults I'm obsessed with, with correct biomechanics. Whereas. Perhaps, we need a little more of that pragmatic sort of hands on Bob Bell's backslapping. Let's get it done. Sort of mentality, not treating people like they're a medical case, you know? And, and that's that bleeds into the robustness mindset as well, is that, you know, people feel strong, they feel empowered. They're more likely to get the physical performance gains they're chasing. Whereas if you pathologize them, treat them like they're hurt or have the potential to be hurt that bleeds into their thinking and they start behaving differently. And this is where, you know, again, physios and SNC coaches working together can be big drivers of behavior change, but they've got to know obviously where the boundaries of each profession lies. And there are some guys that do both very, very well and not saying they don't, but. You know, there's definitely that that need for greater collaboration, but better communication. And I'm seeing more physios now taking an active interest in strength and conditioning, which is great, but it does need to be led by the right people. Um, you know, if you can properly educate that process because there's no point teaching physios how to do essence physios, teaching physios, how to do SNC, if you catch my meaning, you know, um, which we do see some of at the moment. Yeah. And you also, I mean, in your book and in some of your articles, you differentiate between. Like a physio driven approach might work better for a recreational golfer than some of the golfers that you're working with. You're working with these like elite developmental golfers who have structural adaptations, and they've been kind of refining their swings since a young age, so they can already get into key positions that are required to swing well. Whereas like, you know, I practice in New York city there. Aren't like, it's not a hotbed for golf talent. The golfers that I work with are like the, you know, Like mid forties to mid fifties person who is like a candidate for a hip replacement. They have like five degrees if the rasp rotation in both directions. So, whereas the low hanging fruit for your golf athletes might be strength for me. It's like, you literally can't even move. So if I, if I like, you know, mobilizer, thoracic spine, like that's probably going to improve your swing as much as working on vertical force production does for your golfers, because that's like the biggest area of need. And I'm not, I'm not worried about like, Vertical power production, because they can't even move. Right. They can't even get into positions. So like, in your experience, you know, for the higher level golfers, like how much of this dedicated, if they're not injured, mobility work, um, and like physio based work, do they really need, like, are they really lacking some of these key positions or is that something that's really more of an issue with the recreational golfer that maybe, you know, hasn't been doing it as long or isn't as athletic or young. Yeah, it's it's, um, it's an intro interesting situation because again, yes, a lot of, uh, fit golf, fitness interventions are really for the recreational golfer. I honestly, like, I know I'm not a fan of TPI, but you know, They seem to think that, that, that by using more sort of mobility oriented, um, approaches and, and, and, you know, your FMS, which again, I'm not a massive fan of, you know, if you're a recreational golfer chasing some of that stuff could be very, very useful for you. Um, and it's a case in with both sets of individuals, the recreational athlete, or the professional, what's the lowest hanging fruit. Like what's, what's, what's the, the, the, the single physical quality that you can focus in on that you think will yield the biggest change. And again, you know, for that recreation, a person, you know, um, mobility is going to be a massive driver of performance improvement for professional golfers who, um, Mo the mobility message has gotten through. Um, we've done, we've done some research where we've looked at behaviors. Most of those guys, all mobilized, they foam roll, they stretch. They know that it's important. They may not know why, but they know that it's important. They're doing it. So what's the next biggest way we can impact their performance. Well, it's coming back to that strength mass argument, that these are the two things, because most of the time, if you were playing professional golf, new mobile is probably already pretty good. You know, if you're, if you're hitting, if you're playing off, scratch you move well, you know, but the thing is the others, you come in with this, with this sort of surgical mindset was, Oh, well, You know, maybe there are some faults we can fix and that's the wrong approach for the pros quite often, you know? Um, because again, they're moving well, movement is not the problem. And there's this disconnect you're playing pro golf at a, at a, at a European tool challenge or PGA or some of the feeder tours. You probably move excellently. Then why that movement be an issue? You know, it's only a problem when it becomes a problem, right. So, um, you know, if the athlete comes in, complaining of X stuff is limiting my swing, then you can work on that acutely. But for the most, most of the time, it's never a problem, but it seems to be, again, people can flight recreational and professional interventions. And that's a big problem. I think for a lot of guys, is that their work with maybe a couple of pros, but then they'll work with a lot of recreational guys and the practice bleeds over a little bit. Maybe they don't mean it intentionally, but you know, it's well meaning, but, um, Mainly because of the lack of understanding of prophecy and the conditioning. So they're just going to conform to type they're just going to, you know, do the mobility stuff. They always do it with everybody. Um, they just ended up doing a prize as well. And this is where, you know, again, I think people just perhaps not aware of the end of their, their, their, their there understanding, maybe, I don't know, I'm not going to speculate, but, uh, you know, yeah, there is this definitely obsession with mobility. Um, you know, it seems kind of pointless. Yeah. And I mean, for you, when you get a new golfer, new athlete into your gym, are there, what, what, if anything, are you formally assessing? I mean, like, if somebody asks me that question, I kind of give like the Dan path answer, which is the training, like is the movement screen, so to speak and like, you know, I have no reservations about saying that because I'm not going to like, pretend I do this really fancy assessment just to do it. So are there things that like you take, take away, you know, from, from training time to formally assess. Yeah. So we'll have, we'll have those two to two KPIs. We'll see. We'll assess isometric dipole, counter movement. Jump impulse are the two big ones. Um, we'll assess those mainly just from an epileptic activity standpoint, um, that, so we can track improvement over time. Um, But in terms of like movement assessment, most of the time, once I get them moving and lifting warmup is one of the key things, you know, and then if there is an issue I'm not afraid to get someone on the bed and look at their internal, external rotation. It just depends on what the situation calls for. You know, my head physio, Alex runs a, a pretty good screen. And like we had a guy on the other day, the screen took about five minutes, probably less than that. And he goes, There's nothing. Nothing really there's nothing what me was saying anything. Um, cause there's not a point pathologizing something that isn't there, you know, there was, yeah. Yeah. So, and it took, it took less than five minutes. He goes, he was perfectly healthy athlete. Then we went straight on to doing I'll meet dipole and account move and jump. And we spent more time focusing on those. Cause those are areas of importance to this guy, you know, because again, I think. The responsibility of physio particulars, make sure they don't make an issue out of something that isn't an issue, you know, particularly in a population that's prone to obsessing over my new shirt. You know, if you tell someone, um, Oh, you know, your external rotation of the hip on one side is not as good as the other. They're nice to metric to athlete. Of course, it's going to be like that. You know? So they, again, you can make athletes obsess over things that aren't really worth obsessing about, you know, asymmetries, particularly in the golf population. They're very normal. Um, you know, it's, again, it's only a problem when it's a problem, you know, you've got a professional goal. They can swing well, they present where they asymmetries. Then if, if, as long as they don't hurt or it's not affecting their performance, then why worry about it? And again, I think, you know, you're looking at the potential for know, continued income stream, stuff like that, or is that well, you know, we should probably fix X. You know, and, and, and then that becomes a, uh, you know, an opportunity to, to keep selling to the individual and don't get me wrong. You know, working privately, there are some people that are let have, you know, perhaps somewhat unethical or don't have particularly great scruples who will keep looking for an opportunity to keep making money for an athlete. You know, and that's something we don't talk about a lot in, in, in the private sphere, you know, because it's such a taboo around that type of behavior, you know, we don't call out often enough. I think maybe. Yeah. Well, I definitely, uh, I appreciate you have a somewhat contrarian perspective when it comes to golf, because this is probably not what people expect it to here. And you've got, I would encourage you everybody to dive deeper into some of your resources. So can you talk about, you know, where people can find you on social media and the new product that you're releasing? I think so. Yeah. Follow me on Instagram, which is where I used to. I used to blog an awful lot, but blogging seems to have died a death. So I don't do that so much anymore, but you can find me on, on, on Instagram. That's where most of my content goes now. Uh, and that's powering through or one word. Um, I do have a website, uh, which is powering-through.com. Um, the blog gets updated occasionally, if you just want to know more about me and my team, you can always go there. I'm on Twitter. Uh, w S Wayland's you can find me there and, uh, much more recently, uh, we've just released a big hit Emmanuel, which is basically an introduction to strength training. The gaining mass and gaining strength for golf. Who's looking to get into that type of training. Uh, you know, there's not a lot of special strength stuff in there. It's very much what we're referring to meat and potatoes type training. That's the idea, cause this is where we want guys to get on board is with, is with the basics. Cause so many guys still don't do that. So you can get the big hit as manual that's by me and Terrence kennel and that's available. Uh, if you go to my website, that's available in the shop, uh, from the store there. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, um, we put some time into it and we're pretty proud of it. So, uh, you know, we're, people are already asking about maybe, uh, a second volume where we focus more on some of the swings strategy stuff and the speed stuff, but, uh, yeah, we'll let people digest the, uh, the first one first. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. I'll post the notes for all that stuff. Um, appreciate your time and yeah, if you ever do write that, uh, you know, the second edition, then we'll, we'll be sure to have you back on. Yeah, thanks, man. Appreciate it. Thanks. As a thank you for listening, we'd like to offer a 10% discount on all products @ resilientperformance.com. Please use promo code podcast at checkout that's P O D C A S T. And I also encourage you to sign up for our mailing list to receive exclusive articles only available by signing up. Thanks for listening.

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